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[parent] [thread] 10 comments
1. mardif+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-02-08 19:01:16
There's a reason why the criminal justice system operates like that though. The system has been designed like that because it turned that it is a very good idea not to go on witch hunts or to assume guilt if you want a functional society. I'm not defending the person involved here, but it's important to remember that the presumption of innocence isn't just an abstract legal concept instead of a very important part of the social contract.
replies(5): >>Nation+q8 >>smnrch+Sa >>ska+Wk >>yupper+jq >>nether+Et1
2. Nation+q8[view] [source] 2022-02-08 19:34:14
>>mardif+(OP)
Surely the important distinction here is that the state has the power to imprison or execute people. In our day to day lives, we frequently make decisions based on things not proved to that standard, such as in job interviews or on dates. Presumption of innocence is very much an abstract legal contrivance, though it's insightful to see in what cases people suddenly decide it needs to be applied outside that realm.
replies(1): >>thrwyo+Rn2
3. smnrch+Sa[view] [source] 2022-02-08 19:44:37
>>mardif+(OP)
Do you think it is wrong for a person to believe OJ was guilty of the murder he was accused of? If a person decides to keep their distance from their new neighbour OJ and not treat them with neighbourly kindness and open arms because of that murder, would you admonish them for treating OJ differently for something he was never found guilty of in the court of law?
replies(3): >>mardif+ze >>aeturn+pg >>a_e_k+0n
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4. mardif+ze[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-08 20:00:38
>>smnrch+Sa
No, because in the case of OJ we have more than just what the prosecution (in this case, the DoJ) accused him of doing. My point isn't that you can't make your own judgment or that only court decisions are valid source sources of truth. What I'm saying here is that any opinion/analysis we can make at this stage are basically entirely based on the prosecution, since we don't have any other facts to go by.

Unless you already knew the people involved or we have some third party sources, we are basically just believing the side that only has 1 goal; showing how guilty the people they prosecute are. How could that mean anything else but assuming guilt?

(And honestly I think that personal feelings towards a person are very often good enough to make a personal judgment on guilt, but we don't even have that here! I'd bet most of us never heard of them before today)

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5. aeturn+pg[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-08 20:08:18
>>smnrch+Sa
It's not wrong for a person to believe anything and act accordingly. It's not even wrong to argue that we should not describe the accused as innocent (as long as you acknowledge what the official approach suggests before ignoring it). We are all morally free to treat OJ however we like (and everyone else is morally able to judge us for it).

What is wrong is for media organizations (which can be as small as independent reporters) to break expected traditions w/o acknowledging it. It suggests that this case is different (and again, it might be different) implicitly, which isn't ethical. You should either work within the prevailing assumptions of the system, or explicitly defy them in a principled maner.

6. ska+Wk[view] [source] 2022-02-08 20:27:47
>>mardif+(OP)
> he presumption of innocence isn't just an abstract legal concept instead of a very important part of the social contract.

I don't think this is in practice true, as a matter of fact rather than an ideal. People don't, in general, behave the same with other people who are currently being prosecuted for a crime.

This certainly doesn't mean (most) people support vigilantism or witch hunts, or even that you assume guilt. However it seems clear the vast majority of people are fine with the idea that you might be "careful" with someone who is suspected of a crime, especially one being actively prosecuted. To the degree that many will claim they have a right to know this is happening, i.e. they will argue that news should be carried on this (although perhaps no editorializing). This absolutely is not the same as presumption of innocence.

Sometimes this is very unfair, obviously. But "the social contract" as it is practised seems to be pretty ok with that.

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7. a_e_k+0n[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-08 20:36:44
>>smnrch+Sa
This is why I like the Scottish "not proven" acquittal verdict as an intermediate third option between "not guilty" and "guilty."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_proven

8. yupper+jq[view] [source] 2022-02-08 20:49:23
>>mardif+(OP)
I could literally watch someone pick up a gun and shoot someone. Technically they're still innocent until a court of law says they're guilty. But as an individual I don't need to wait to think they're guilty.

The question is where do you draw the line as an individual.

replies(1): >>Gene_P+i81
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9. Gene_P+i81[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-09 01:00:14
>>yupper+jq
Non-lawyers often seem to misunderstand this phrase. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a statement defining the fact that in criminal cases, the burden of proof rests with the government. They have to present evidence proving your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt; you don't have to present any evidence proving your innocence beyond a reasonable doubt.

That's all it means. Obviously judges are not supposed to come into a case assuming you are guilty, but you can say that about any type of case. The phrase certainly doesn't mean we have to pretend that you are perfectly innocent up until the point of verdict.

10. nether+Et1[view] [source] 2022-02-09 03:46:16
>>mardif+(OP)
The reason is that the criminal justice system imposes heavy penalties for those convicted and therefore they have to be extra careful. My words have no real effect so I can convict anyone I like.
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11. thrwyo+Rn2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-09 12:51:55
>>Nation+q8
ask Lindy Chamberlain
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