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1. hintym+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-11-11 07:19:46
Some people seem not get it: dropping homework or objective assessment will not help under-privileged students but hurt them. Homework and object assessment are not used to oppress people (what kind of sick mind would think of that?). They are used to give students timely feedback on what they need to improve upon. Just reading books and listening to lectures will help students learn probably 20% or less, and it is homework or exercises in general that will take students to the next level. Remember the classic STEM textbooks? The authors will usually say that exercises are an important part of the book, and students should try to solve all of them? Let me guess, completing those exercises will be racist?

And why do you left think that lowering standards will help poor students? You think the poor students will get better education without pushing themselves? You think less trained students will do better in their future job? You think they will magically master advanced concepts and skills? You think they will suddenly become better problem solvers? On the other hand, you think the families with means will not send their kids to Russian School of Mathematics, to Art of Problem Solving, and to teach some kids advanced STEM and reading and writing with other like-minded parents and private teachers? You think that those with means won't send their kids to private school if public schools go to hell? Do you left even know that those with means do not need to go to tutoring schools or private schools if public schools have some common sense? Do you left even know that the best K-12 schools in China are always, I mean always, public schools? Do you left even know that the best teachers in each Chinese city are always, always, public school teachers? Do you left even ask yourself why the majority of Chinese students graduated from public schools yet they are so good at STEM subjects (they may not have as many geniuses as in the western world, but I'm talking about ordinary students here)?

Yeah, I'm sure labeling everything racism and everyone who disagree with you racist will magically improve K-12 education of the US. It's as if you left are trying to destroy the life of under-privileged by pretending to be righteous.

replies(2): >>alanfr+k7 >>pksebb+J9
2. alanfr+k7[view] [source] 2021-11-11 08:35:52
>>hintym+(OP)
I think that the point is not about lowering standards; it's about preventing unrelated variables to enter the equation.

Examples:

  - A lot of redundant homework is assigned, quantity over quality. Some students with external duties (e.g. family, work) are just unable to deliver all the homework, and thus get lower grades, even though less homework would be enough to demonstrate ability in a topic;
  - Deadlines are set too close to an homework availability date, so students with external duties are sometimes unable to meet them;
  - Students in affluent families could be helped by third parties with their homework; it's hard to verify that;
  - Students that do a bad homework or fail an exam should be able to retake it, since it's easier to have a "bad day" if your family has issues.
The point is measuring actual student ability, not busywork throughput or the willingness to meet arbitrary deadlines.
replies(3): >>dorcha+wu >>edanm+461 >>hintym+xa1
3. pksebb+J9[view] [source] 2021-11-11 08:57:21
>>hintym+(OP)
it's not about removing assessment, but not penalizing for an assessment that determines there's more learning to do; the point of assessing is to get a sense of what work the teacher needs to do to get the student up to speed.
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4. dorcha+wu[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 12:35:00
>>alanfr+k7
And to not penalize students (.i. homework grades) if they have to work to help support their family, or have so many other trauma issues. GP here really seems to have an idealized version of how school works, ignoring all facts that actually influence learning and stuff (.i. socioeconomic ones). Homework just compounds those problems, and I'd also say there's no such thing as "objective assessments" as well.
replies(1): >>alanfr+EJ
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5. alanfr+EJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 14:30:07
>>dorcha+wu
> And to not penalize students (.i. homework grades) if they have to work to help support their family, or have so many other trauma issues

Just to explain my point: if a student has worse skills, whatever their reason is, they should have lower grades. That's what a grade is for.

Then, you may want to address the causes of such low grade.

What you don't want to do is penalize students for arbitrary reasons like deadlines, absence from school, et cetera.

replies(1): >>dorcha+q61
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6. edanm+461[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 16:12:32
>>alanfr+k7
Just wanted to say thank you for providing actual, reasonable things to think about. As someone who is very skeptical of movements to ignore grading/etc, as are many others here, it's nice to have good counterarguments against my default view.

(That said, and agreeing with the above completely, I think many people are saying things that are far less reasonable than everything you say above.)

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7. dorcha+q61[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 16:14:25
>>alanfr+EJ
> Just to explain my point: if a student has worse skills, whatever their reason is, they should have lower grades. That's what a grade is for.

This, I absolutely agree with. Last year I implemented a standards-based system. If you could prove to me you knew the material, you got the points. If you learned it later and proved to me you knew it then, your grade changed.

I did do homework grades (I was required to have one grade a week, and there's no way I could do enough continuous assessment), but it was solely participation and as long as you turned it in and tried (.i. didn't cheat), you got full credit.

Generally, I completely agree you don't want to penalize them for arbitrary reasons; to me, that includes homework. I had to do it, but as long as it was turned in eventually, and honestly attempted, they got full credit (it was like 10% the overall grade). To me, that's how it should be done.

Basically, I completely agree and didn't mean to seem as if I was disagreeing with you!

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8. hintym+xa1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-11-11 16:30:52
>>alanfr+k7
Thank you! Your point is reasonable.
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