zlacker

[parent] [thread] 30 comments
1. frankl+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-09-29 06:57:47
The main issue is that currently there's no way around publishing at the established journals and conferences, because of the reputation they've built up. Funding and career advancement hinge on publications in these venues. If we accept that publishers don't offer much at all in return for the publication fees/library subscription costs (barely any editing, reviewers work pro bono, hosting PDFs is very cheap nowadays), the main issue is one of "reputation transfer".

One way to cut out the middle man would be to convince journal editors to run sibling journals alongside the existing journals, so for each "Transactions on XYZ" there would be an "Open Transactions on XYZ" (as close in title as is legal). Importantly, each sibling journal would be run by the exact same academics (who are doing the real work on tax money anyway), and according to the same process as the original journal, just without involvement from a traditional publisher. PDFs would be hosted on a site like arXiv. The goal would be that submitting to the open "sibling" would be the obvious rational choice (same people, same decision-making, no fees, open access), which in time even the funding agencies and tenure committees would have to acknowledge.

replies(7): >>eecc+I1 >>einpok+r3 >>nine_k+n4 >>stuart+x7 >>unnah+s9 >>Vinnl+ia >>jasode+qm
2. eecc+I1[view] [source] 2021-09-29 07:15:31
>>frankl+(OP)
I guess that’s why the journals insist on copyright transfer.

At best you get a ”copy” you can share via email when asked personally; the equivalent of a musician paid a couple drink coupons to share with their friends that came to see the gig…

replies(1): >>frankl+r2
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3. frankl+r2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 07:24:46
>>eecc+I1
I'm not suggesting to publish every paper twice. The author submits only to one of the two journals. If it's the original journal, the article appears exactly as is common now, behind a paywall, and that's it. If it's the new sibling journal, the publisher of the original journal has nothing to do with it, no copyright transfer occurs, and the paper appears only on a free and open platform.
4. einpok+r3[view] [source] 2021-09-29 07:36:24
>>frankl+(OP)
Sure there is a way around it.

You publish in an established venue, but also put the paper on a public website. This is possible legally using the "standard trick": https://academia.stackexchange.com/a/119002/7319

... and is in relatively wide practice.

replies(2): >>frankl+74 >>Someon+Um
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5. frankl+74[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 07:44:22
>>einpok+r3
That's not a way around publishing at the established venues, it's done in addition to it. Everyone still submits to the established journals and conferences because this is what is being evaluated for career advancement and funding.
replies(1): >>mdp202+n8
6. nine_k+n4[view] [source] 2021-09-29 07:46:46
>>frankl+(OP)
I thought that the point of journals is review and filtering, their selectively, I thought, is their value proposition over arxiv.org.

Am I mistaken?

replies(1): >>frankl+L4
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7. frankl+L4[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 07:50:43
>>nine_k+n4
What I'm proposing is to convince the same people that currently take care of the reviewing and selection process for an established journal to do the same thing for an open and independent variant of the same journal, which is run alongside the original journal.
replies(2): >>admins+N5 >>mach1n+g8
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8. admins+N5[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 08:01:52
>>frankl+L4
good idea
9. stuart+x7[view] [source] 2021-09-29 08:22:40
>>frankl+(OP)
Most journals are hybrid now, and offer a choice when publishing- either it's free for the author but kept behind a paywall, or the author pays up front. The article processing charges are really expensive- BMJ is £3,500, Lancet $5000, Cell $5,200 etc, although some major funders have arranged 'site licenses' with publishers so that all their funded research can be published open access without charge to the scientist.
replies(1): >>frankl+n9
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10. mach1n+g8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 08:31:26
>>frankl+L4
Sadly these people are replaceable, and to my understanding the rights to the journals themselves are owned by the academic publishing industry. People don't really care who runs Nature; it is the reputation of the name that counts.
replies(1): >>frankl+i9
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11. mdp202+n8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 08:32:11
>>frankl+74
Is not the chief practical problem that access to knowledge gets barred in a pay-to-read system. The trick is one patch against that chief practical issue, which can be for these purposes separated by the systemic issue.
replies(1): >>frankl+79
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12. frankl+79[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 08:40:52
>>mdp202+n8
I agree: it helps a lot with the practical issue of access to knowledge. But from a taxpayer's or academic's perspective it wouldn't hurt to also eliminate the exorbitant publishing/licensing fees.
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13. frankl+i9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 08:42:27
>>mach1n+g8
That's a good point, editors and reviewers come and go. Ideally, the newcomers would by default also be attached to "Independent Open Nature", until it becomes irrational to submit to Nature itself.
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14. frankl+n9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 08:44:00
>>stuart+x7
That's true, and I'm not sure how these fees can be justified.
15. unnah+s9[view] [source] 2021-09-29 08:45:20
>>frankl+(OP)
There are a few cases in which the editorial board of a journal has seen the light, resigned from a traditional publisher, and restarted an essentially equivalent open access journal. It's however hard to see 1) why they would simultaneously continue doing the same job for the for-profit publisher, and 2) why the for-profit publisher would accept it.
replies(1): >>frankl+8a
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16. frankl+8a[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 08:53:49
>>unnah+s9
1) For the status of being, e.g., editor-in-chief of a well-known journal. 2) I'd expect that they would be opposed, but firing their editors for it would make for interesting headlines.
17. Vinnl+ia[view] [source] 2021-09-29 08:57:11
>>frankl+(OP)
I volunteer for a project [1] where the idea of "cutting out the middle man" is taken even further: removing the journal from the reputation transfer.

So rather than a reviewer lending their reputation to a journal, and that journal then conferring a stamp of trustworthiness onto an academic work, reviewers lend their reputation directly to the works they review. The works themselves can still be shared far and wide, e.g. via ArXiv.

Of course, inertia is still a massive force to work against.

[1] https://plaudit.pub

replies(1): >>jonath+Zc
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18. jonath+Zc[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 09:32:42
>>Vinnl+ia
This is looks like a horrible idea. The system violates anonymous peer reviewing standards. These are sometimes even mandated by law, e.g. our funding institution would not allow us to count such a publication as "peer reviewed." There are many good reasons why peer review needs to be anonymous on both ends (the reviewer is anonymous and the manuscript is anonymized). Many reputable journals have even switched to triple blind peer review, i.e., the editor in chief does not know which two peer reviewers are selected.

The biggest problem I see with the proposed system is that it's unfortunately often easy to recognize who wrote a paper (which is bad for ordinary peer review already) and in a personal endorsement system this would lead to collusion among researchers with low integrity. You wink through my papers, I wink through your papers. Also, imagine you don't endorse the paper of the senior researcher in charge of your postdoc funding...

replies(2): >>hoseja+ne >>Vinnl+Ci
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19. hoseja+ne[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 09:51:52
>>jonath+Zc
I'm sure if you applied blockchain and crypto enough times, this could be solved in some byzantine and massively inefficient way.
replies(1): >>jonath+yf
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20. jonath+yf[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 10:11:01
>>hoseja+ne
Don't forget to make scientists constantly mine for cryptocoins on their GPUs if they want to keep their crappy postdoc job, that way it's profit for everyone. :P
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21. Vinnl+Ci[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 10:50:19
>>jonath+Zc
In practice (as you partly allude to), the problems you speak to already often occur for traditional peer review, except they're less traceable there. Sure, collusion rings and nepotism is (still!) possible, but the data is out there for everyone to see and to call you out on. Now winking through a paper risks your reputation (the very thing that makes your endorsement relevant!), rather than only being potentially noticed by an observant editor.

(Something similar goes for researchers in charge of your postdoc funding: how many co-authorships are earned, and how many are ways to game the current system?)

I'm certainly not saying that a public endorsement system is the end-all-be-all and won't have its own problems. However, I do get frustrated every now and then by the institutional inertia that arises from holding new initiatives to higher standards than existing ones (see also: using the Impact Factor to evaluate academics).

replies(1): >>jonath+ex
22. jasode+qm[view] [source] 2021-09-29 11:31:13
>>frankl+(OP)
>One way to cut out the middle man would be to convince journal editors to run sibling journals alongside the existing journals, [...] , each sibling journal would be run by the exact same academics (who are doing the real work on tax money anyway),

Your proposed solution will not work because the sibling journal doesn't have the same paid support staff to do the unpleasant work that academics do not want to do. The unpleasant work includes administrative, first pass screening, copy-editing, typesetting, etc. I wrote a previous comment about this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16738497

Therefore, the zero cost sibling journal wouldn't even get started by (most) academic editors because it imposes more labor they don't want to do. Yes, publishers like Elsevier and Springer are vilified ... but they also have paid staff and infrastructure to support the papers editors.

Because internet discussions have the constant repetition of "the reviewers are unpaid" (which is true), it creates a distorted mental model that the prestigious journals have "no paid staff" (which is not true). The publishers' paid support employees helps the unpaid reviewers.

An interesting journal that might seem like a counterexample to the support staff labor puzzle above is JMLR. But in an essay that explains how JMLR is able to function (e.g. offload typesetting and out-of-pocket expense of copy-editing to the submitter instead of the publisher) ... that same essay also explains why other journals haven't copied JMLR's model. (Analogous to your "sibling journal" proposal.)

Excerpt from https://blogs.harvard.edu/pamphlet/2012/03/06/an-efficient-j... :

>Does JMLR’s success and efficiency mean that all journals could run this way? Of course not. First, computer science journals are in a particularly good situation for being operated at low cost. Computer scientists possess all of the technological expertise required to efficiently manage and operate an online journal. Journal publishing is an information industry and computer scientists are specialists in information processing. Second, the level of volunteerism that JMLR relies on is atypical for the entire spectrum of journals.

Thus, the academics and editors at non-compsci journals such as Nature and The Lancet do not have comparable culture of information systems platform management, computer software skills of typesetting, volunteerism, etc that JMLR has. And the key is that they have no incentive to do so since the publishers already give them infrastructure support without imposing extra labor on the editors.

replies(2): >>frankl+jp >>Domini+sB
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23. Someon+Um[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 11:37:15
>>einpok+r3
You often don’t need any trick. Major publishers nowadays allow you to put something nearly identical to the published paper online.

See for example https://www.elsevier.com/authors/submit-your-paper/sharing-a...:

You can always post your preprint on a preprint server. Additionally, for ArXiv and RePEC you can also immediately update this version with your accepted manuscript. Please note that Cell Press, The Lancet, and some society-owned titles have different preprint policies. Information on these is available on the journal homepage.

[…]

You can post your accepted author manuscript immediately to an institutional repository and make this publicly available after an embargo period has expired. Remember that for gold open access articles, you can post your published journal article and immediately make it publicly available.”

replies(1): >>einpok+8q2
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24. frankl+jp[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 12:00:29
>>jasode+qm
True, I guess my perspective is biased towards CS. In that field, what I've seen in terms of editing on the part of a publisher amounted to requests for minor formatting changes (to be done by the authors) and insertion of a copyright notice. I have never heard of any publisher-side "first pass screening" of submissions to conferences I was involved in or journals I know the editors of. There, desk rejects are done by the committee/editors (and personally I would be very nervous having a non-expert do this job). To the best of my knowledge, in CS, there is nothing being done that comes close to justifying, say, the open access publication fees at their current level.
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25. jonath+ex[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 13:05:58
>>Vinnl+Ci
I don't think it's a good idea to explain away valid criticisms as inertia. I also don't buy the implicit claim that giving up the anonymity of the peer reviewers could improve peer reviewing. It seems obvious that giving up anonymous peer review would make things worse and that putting the reviewer's reputation on the line would not improve things. It creates all kinds of conflicts of interests and biases. You also need to understand that the people who game the system have a low reputation anyway. They find a niche, build up their collusion ring with people they meet at conferences, and get a tenure-track position or full tenure because of their high, though low quality publication track record. Moreover, if the peer review is properly anonymous, then reviewers are way more critical than if it's not anonymous. Hence, acceptance rates in top journals in my area are below 5%. If the reviewer is not anonymous, they would be way more permissive, since they don't want to completely shatter their relations with their colleagues. Higher acceptance rates means lower value publications, not higher standards.

There are many things that needs to be addressed to improve science, not just peer review. Hiring policies need to change and indicator counts need to be used more adequately, empirical studies need to be pre-registered and the p-value needs to be 1% or lower. Peer review is just one factor and mostly a monetary issue. If all research institutions would spend enough money to make all commercial journals available for everyone, there would be no particular problem with peer review. The problem of many researchers in poorer countries is that they don't. The problem is not that peer review does not work.

replies(2): >>sitkac+XD >>Vinnl+ST
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26. Domini+sB[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 13:30:11
>>jasode+qm
Springer and Elsevier in my experience (CS and Economics) do very little copy editing, and often make the paper worse during their typesetting (introduce typos, bugs, screenshot figures rather than keep the vector graphics). As a reviewer, the antiquated administrative web system they use to make me input reviews is also a net negative contribution.
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27. sitkac+XD[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 13:38:41
>>jonath+ex
Anonymity removes the difficult aspects of human social interaction and allows everyone to focus on the science.

Peer review itself is wonderful and is what enables science itself to work as well as it does.

replies(1): >>deepbu+ZH1
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28. Vinnl+ST[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 14:52:53
>>jonath+ex
I don't mean so say that criticisms aren't valid; just that perfect is frustratingly often the enemy of better.

For example, the status quo can be justified by "it seems obvious that" rather than being evidence-based. In practice, single or double blind is very often not actually blind [1], in which case it's hard to argue that it would be any different than transparency. Likewise, a new solution "creates all kinds of conflicts of interests and biases", without even considering whether the existing CoIs and biases are any better. Likewise, if people who game the system today have a low reputation, why would the same not hold true in a new system? Likewise, does anonymous peer review actually improve the quality of the reviews (e.g. [2])?

It's good not to blindly embrace something new, but I think it's important to withold judgement too, and see how it plays out in practice, and to make an effort to compensate for the prejudice people typically have towards the status quo.

And yes, absolutely agreed that much more needs to be addressed to improve science. But I also very much take issue with the idea that peer review is fine as-is.

[1] https://absolutelymaybe.plos.org/2017/10/31/the-fractured-lo...

[2] Heading "quality of feedback": https://plos.org/resource/open-peer-review/

replies(1): >>jonath+Hq3
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29. deepbu+ZH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 18:05:18
>>sitkac+XD
Frankly "peer review" is the furthest thing away from wonderful. While the idea is legitimate, it is undermined at every step of the way.

* Reviewers are basically forced to it for free. If you're a researcher you won't have the time to properly fact check a 40 page paper for free, it just isn't going to happen. So they (we) don't. The review process isn't very rigorous.

* Journals are leeching off of the public money by double whammying both the scientists and the institutes while providing minuscule value. Their gains are absolutely disproportionate to what they provide.

* Even the most involved and convoluted peer review processes aren't as anonymous as you think. When there's already a handful of people in your field, you can pretty easily tell someone's identity from their writing style.

I would love to pretend that the system is great and works very well but it just doesn't and this pretense and the phenomenon of holding new systems to a higher standard than the current one is preventing us from actually improving the system.

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30. einpok+8q2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-29 21:35:42
>>Someon+Um
Well, that partial change is the result of people just posting their papers and ignoring more draconian previous copyright transfers. Still, not remotely sufficient. The point is that with this text, you only have the specific rights defined by Elsevier, and those are kind of limited. It's not at all clear what rights people who copy the paper have.

So, for example:

* There's an "embargo period" during which you're censored, you need to shut up, can't post your article. Preposterous.

* In many venues, you need to use custom links to Elsevier's "Science blocked and obfuscated". I mean "ScienceDirect"... yeah, right...

* You seem not to have rights to post new versions, or other derivative works.

* Stuff I haven't thought of because I'm not an IP lawyer.

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31. jonath+Hq3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-09-30 08:11:38
>>Vinnl+ST
The point is that there is nothing inherently wrong with blind peer review, you're proposing the classical solution to a nonexistent problem. The problem is that too many reputable journals were lured over to big publishing houses and these want to use them as a perpetual money-printing machine. To fix the problem, you create free, voluntary-based reputable open access journals with triple blind peer review that will (slowly) replace the expensive ones. This is happening.

Maybe you should consider that you're the stubborn one who links to blog posts from open access journals with a strong bias to reform the peer review system as evidence. Plos journals have this agenda because they don't have good enough pools of reviewers, which is the problem of all new journals. However, it's not as if scientists all over the world and funding authorities haven't thought about the topic. People should not withold judgement about these issues, that's an odd request and would weaken the position of scientific staff towards political decision makers who certainly won't withold judgement.

To give you an example of what is being done by funding authorities, at our university we are required by law to publish every article in openly accessible format. Otherwise they do not count at all towards our salaries, they will be ignored completely. There are public open repositories for that. The only thing that bothers everyone is that big publishers like Elsevier only allow draft versions in those repositories and there is sometimes a 1 year mandatory delay until they can be put online. That needs to change and EU authorities are working on it.

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