zlacker

[parent] [thread] 20 comments
1. miniki+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-05-25 22:01:07
Is it a good thing for society to directly incentivize the construction of longer lasting buildings?
replies(4): >>sesuxi+U1 >>Taek+p7 >>lurque+z9 >>brandm+nn
2. sesuxi+U1[view] [source] 2021-05-25 22:13:43
>>miniki+(OP)
IMO yes; if the materials cost a lot of time/carbon/resources to produce, then we should make them last!
replies(3): >>autoka+A2 >>renewi+W8 >>mc32+mf
◧◩
3. autoka+A2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-25 22:18:07
>>sesuxi+U1
I agree. Its like one of the few things we can give future generations. 'sorry about the debt, but heres some buildings'
replies(1): >>nickff+De
4. Taek+p7[view] [source] 2021-05-25 22:47:29
>>miniki+(OP)
Maybe sufficient to require that construction put down enough money to cover deconstruction and cleanup when building.
replies(1): >>dan-ro+Pg
◧◩
5. renewi+W8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-25 22:57:01
>>sesuxi+U1
No, time is not an externality: maybe time under construction yields to disruption to neighbours under construction and we can charge for that. Resources are fully internalized. If a building needs x sand and another needs 2x sand, the second will pay twice for sand. Carbon is externalized, but that's a general problem. How do we know that making a lasting building is better/worse than having the building not exist / exist and having people driver farther / closer?

Simple, for externalities, you directly charge for the externality.

All these stop-gap "it costs carbon, so we must make it last 50 years" is like placing massive `if-then-else` statements throughout your codebase and then being surprised when the emergent behaviour of your program somehow results in uglier, more carbon polluting, sicker buildings that are now 100 years old and imposing massive costs on society around them.

6. lurque+z9[view] [source] 2021-05-25 23:02:21
>>miniki+(OP)
Good point.

What hubris for a landowner to assume there will be a need for a building 1000 years hence.

Buildings aren’t usually demolished and replaced because they are dilapidated; rather, it’s because the new owner has a different need (and a different aesthetic.)

A building that takes 1000 to crumble is just as a much a blight — maybe more — as a plastic bottle that takes 10,000 years to crumble.

replies(2): >>bombca+Kd >>rm445+MB3
◧◩
7. bombca+Kd[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-25 23:29:35
>>lurque+z9
Arguably for many buildings we should be going the other way - if the average house is remodeled or torn down in 30-40 years perhaps we should be building out of renewable materials that are designed to last long and no more (think hay bales covered with mud).
replies(1): >>lurque+kC2
◧◩◪
8. nickff+De[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-25 23:35:33
>>autoka+A2
You're implicitly assuming they'll want those buildings, and I'm not sure they will. Perhaps those buildings will be unsuitable for their activities, or the buildings will be found unsafe for some unforeseen reason. If either of these possibilities occur, the additional time, energy, and pollution you incurred to make the buildings rust-resistant are waste.
◧◩
9. mc32+mf[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-25 23:40:25
>>sesuxi+U1
Japan builds buildings to last 30 years on average. They tear them down and build new ones. Is it good, bad, something else? I don’t know, except not everyone builds for things to last a long time.
replies(1): >>morten+3h
◧◩
10. dan-ro+Pg[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-25 23:48:41
>>Taek+p7
Yeah I think this is a better way to put it. By incentivising long-lasting buildings you are better pricing in the amortised (environmental) negative externalities of tearing down and rebuilding.

I see two arguments against:

1. Future buildings will be so much better for the environment that increasing costs today for long lasting buildings or having to wait longer for environmentally better buildings is a net negative

2. Old buildings are typically not useful and so we shouldn’t encourage a future full of them (examples: smaller houses in city centres function ok but aren’t well insulated and could reduce total environmental costs of the city if they were replaced with more dense accommodation; many old churches see little use; many old buildings or rooms of them are no longer fit for any efficient purpose and so are wasting resources, eg banks with lots of space for tellers/vaults/deposit boxes or stock exchanges with big trading pits or warehouses which cannot be converted or even the rooms above shops which often seem to be disused. I have also seen other places where good use is still made of old buildings (typically long lived institutions like schools or societies or universities) though perhaps not as efficient use as might be possible. Obviously there are other cultural arguments for keeping old buildings around (but sometimes I worry regulations enforcing this can be too prohibitive, eg freezing an old building that has been changing slowly over many years at the point it becomes protected).

replies(1): >>sokolo+us
◧◩◪
11. morten+3h[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-25 23:50:01
>>mc32+mf
People quote this figure often, but it really only applies to detached single-family dwellings, which are commonly built for a single owner. Japan certainly doesn't build larger structures such as office buildings for thirty-year lifespans – no one has floated any plans to tear down the Kasumigaseki Building yet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasumigaseki_Building
replies(2): >>mc32+Ai >>lmm+2n
◧◩◪◨
12. mc32+Ai[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-26 00:00:59
>>morten+3h
Have things changed in the last decade or so[1]?

Japanese loathe “second hand” stuff if they can avoid it. This includes property. The service life for buildings is 47 to 50 years or so, for depreciation purposes.

Totally unrelated, but I love that 1000 year old wooden temples get rebuilt every 20 years or so[2] because of the religious idea of renewal.

[1] https://japanpropertycentral.com/2012/06/what-is-the-lifespa...

[2]https://chrispythoughts.wordpress.com/2012/10/19/558/

replies(2): >>jefftk+mk >>mcguir+Gy
◧◩◪◨⬒
13. jefftk+mk[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-26 00:17:54
>>mc32+Ai
> The service life for buildings is 47 to 50 years or so, for depreciation purposes.

That doesn't tell you much: in the US the lifetime of a residential rental building is 27.5 years for depreciation purposes, and 39 for non-residential: https://www.irs.gov/publications/p946

◧◩◪◨
14. lmm+2n[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-26 00:42:07
>>morten+3h
One historic building being 50 years old proves very little - of course some buildings last longer than the average. E.g. every one of the famous Dojunkai apartment buildings has been demolished.
15. brandm+nn[view] [source] 2021-05-26 00:44:28
>>miniki+(OP)
One reason to prefer shorter-lasting buildings is to encourage higher density over time.
◧◩◪
16. sokolo+us[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-26 01:28:31
>>dan-ro+Pg
> Old buildings are typically not useful.

My 95 year old brick house would beg to differ on utility of old buildings. My prior house was over 230 years old and provided 14 years of excellent utility to me.

replies(1): >>dan-ro+B81
◧◩◪◨⬒
17. mcguir+Gy[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-26 02:24:05
>>mc32+Ai
Possibly.

"A recent innovation in the Japanese real estate industry to promote home ownership is the creation of a 100-year mortgage term. The home, encumbered by the mortgage, becomes an ancestral property and is passed on from grandparent to grandchild in a multigenerational fashion. We analyze the implications of this innovative practice, contrast it with the conventional 30-year mortgage popular in Western nations and explore its unique benefits and limitations within the Japanese economic and cultural framework." The 100-year Japanese residential mortgage: An examination (1995) (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/106195....)

replies(1): >>mc32+XA
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
18. mc32+XA[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-26 02:45:14
>>mcguir+Gy
My understanding is the cost is mostly the land and the building not so much. I think Sweden introduced a law limiting mortgages to ~100 years[1] because property prices were becoming unaffordable to many. So this may be more about "affordability" than longevity of buildings, but time will tell.

[1]https://www.thelocal.se/20160324/sweden-limits-mortgage-loan...

◧◩◪◨
19. dan-ro+B81[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-26 07:59:04
>>sokolo+us
Old is certainly relative. A 200 year old house fits more into point 1 than 2 above. A 230 year old office block tends to not be such a well suited building.
◧◩◪
20. lurque+kC2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-26 17:20:35
>>bombca+Kd
Why do we not make clothing that can last 1000 years, be passed down, etc.?

I contend that buildings, with a few exceptions, are consumables. Whether wise or not, humans like to build new things, customizable to their own tastes.

An office building that lasts ‘only’ 50 years instead of 500 shouldn’t be surprising. In 50 years time, for most buildings, even if it could last another few decades, it will be torn down and replaced. That’s just what humans do. States differently, even if everyone at the time knew concrete/rebar would only last 50 years and not the 1000+ years, it wouldn’t have made a difference, for nobody — short of a Pharaoh — has any interest in such a permanent structure. Cities come and go, buildings come and go, rivers and shorelines change, etc. it’s not reasonable to assume the desirable center of activity (either residential or commercial) in which one builds will even be there 50 years hence. So why worry about how long the building will last?

◧◩
21. rm445+MB3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-26 22:53:25
>>lurque+z9
The nice thing about buildings which last a long time is, the good ones can be kept around. It's the good side of survivorship bias.
[go to top]