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[parent] [thread] 41 comments
1. Izkata+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-05-24 14:55:49
> This story continues to evolve

Everything listed by GP was known a year ago, which is why it was so frustrating to get dismissed as conspiracy theory.

replies(2): >>epicur+Y1 >>xanaxa+I7
2. epicur+Y1[view] [source] 2021-05-24 15:05:39
>>Izkata+(OP)
I agree. This seemed obvious even a year ago, and it seemed like the media and certain public officials were doing everything they could to avoid acknowledging it. And yet now they are starting to acknowledge it.

What changed? Mostly the party in power. At the time it was politically expedient to say that Trump was being racist or xenophobic against China, so it was deemed necessary to paint comments by him or his supporters as xenophobic conspiracy theories. Then when he states something reasonable like the lab leak hypothesis they can portray him and his supporters as conspiracy nuts. And if it could influence the election even 0.1%, that would be bonus points for some people, although I would call that a dishonest influence.

Now that he isn’t in power, they’ve decided it’s no longer necessary to avoid telling the truth.

replies(2): >>zpeti+06 >>HWR_14+DM
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3. zpeti+06[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 15:25:29
>>epicur+Y1
It was extremely worrying to me that the same happened with Hydroxychloroquine. Now I know that the scientific community proved that it doesn’t work. Fine, good.

But the media dismissed it before that was proved. Because trump said it.

Now imagine a hypothetical scenario where it actually worked. Just because trump was using it, the media would have potentially killed people just because they can’t agree with a single thing trump says.

This is not journalism. It’s not objective reporting in the slightest. And it was by media outlets who claim to be doing real journalism and claim they are objective. At least fox doesn’t claim to be objective. It’s shameful propaganda.

replies(8): >>firmno+ia >>toast0+rd >>manuel+Li >>tzs+Eq >>Izkata+ps >>adamre+tG >>headme+FW >>totalZ+JR2
4. xanaxa+I7[view] [source] 2021-05-24 15:33:45
>>Izkata+(OP)
This is what Trump meant by "fake news". As much as the HN crowd hates him, he's right about that. We don't have a regular report-the-news media in the US anymore, we have a propaganda arm of the authoritarian left and a satellite network of reactionary right wing outlets that are about as bad. Glenn Greenwald has had some excellent writing about this recently.

My general position is that if something is reported by a mainstream media outlet, there's a good chance that the opposite is true.

replies(4): >>manuel+j9 >>Viliam+ht >>stjohn+Tl1 >>twox2+RL3
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5. manuel+j9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 15:41:38
>>xanaxa+I7
Trump boasted news networks like Fox, OANN, and NewsMax, which arguably are the least credible sources out there.

Fox lawyers even argued that the Tucker show is not "news", and should not be treated as such.

So, no, he was not right about this either. He just peddled the idea that the only credible broadcasts were the ones praising him.

replies(3): >>zpeti+jc >>xanaxa+7k >>bart_s+Rn
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6. firmno+ia[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 15:45:44
>>zpeti+06
The same thing happened with Ivermectin as a prophylaxis. All of a sudden anything that was years old with a history of safe use in humans was off the table. They all also happen to be old enough that patent protection is gone. It's almost like people wanted this to be more dangerous and less treatable for some reason.
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7. zpeti+jc[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 15:53:02
>>manuel+j9
The trouble is the NYT and others still claim to be objective and not really partisan. They still market themselves as the bastion of real journalism.

At least with fox and oann you know they are fully partisan.

replies(2): >>manuel+Sg >>wearyw+0V
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8. toast0+rd[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 15:59:03
>>zpeti+06
Look, taking advice from Trump on medical issues is dumb. Injecting bleach (or drinking it or whatever) is a bad idea, and it was hopefully a joke, but you can't tell what is a joke and what isn't.

But that means you have to ignore his advice, not take it as an indicator of something bad. From what I can tell, there was plenty of activity trying out anything that seemed plausible, including Hydroxychloroquine. And it went through the usual medical science news cycle of study showing it totally works, study showing it might work, study showing it actually doesn't do a whole lot, with a pretty quick progression.

About the only thing the negative media coverage may have done is discourage people from actively soliciting for a mostly untested experimental treatment. But then again, probably not by much; or maybe they asked for other malaria drugs instead.

replies(1): >>zpeti+fe
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9. zpeti+fe[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 16:02:33
>>toast0+rd
Taking medical advice without evidence from “anti trump” is just as bad.

If you are making decisions not based on evidence but on personalities, you are going to make huge mistakes.

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10. manuel+Sg[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 16:14:17
>>zpeti+jc
Partisanship is on a scale. It is not a binary thing.

NYT may be partisan, yes, but, qualitatively speaking, it's laughable to compare NYT and OANN or NewsMax. They are not even in the same business.

replies(4): >>zpeti+zi >>zpeti+Hj >>nescio+wr1 >>paul_f+sF1
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11. zpeti+zi[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 16:21:15
>>manuel+Sg
It’s very easy to come to that conclusion about your own sides media. Perhaps you should ask some republicans about how objective the NYT is, and ask for evidence. You might be surprised.
replies(2): >>manuel+wo >>Paradi+4C
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12. manuel+Li[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 16:22:26
>>zpeti+06
> Now imagine a hypothetical scenario where it actually worked.

That would have been a coincidente. Are you willing to gamble your wellbeing on a lucky hunch?

I still don't understand this logic process. Asserting something with no evidence is arguably worse, than pointing out the absurdity of it.

replies(1): >>zpeti+tn
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13. zpeti+Hj[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 16:26:00
>>manuel+Sg
Also we are in a thread where reporting on a virus that has killed 3m people is in question at these big outlets. There are few bigger issues. This is very worrying for these supposedly less partisan outlets.
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14. xanaxa+7k[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 16:27:40
>>manuel+j9
I don't entirely disagree, hence

> satellite network of reactionary right wing outlets that are about as bad

Predictably, as is custom at this point, our respective appraisals of the other side depend on the side we're on. Fine - but that's beside the point. CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, et. all are, most charitably, factories of lies by omission. It's been clear to a lot of us that COVID was born of a colossal mistake by CCP scientists doing GoF research since February or March of 2020. The mainstream so-called news knew just as long - they're not stupid, they're manipulating you along an undisclosed agenda.

Just because you can point to someone else you believe to mislead in a more egregious fashion doesn't somehow alleviate the fact that we have exactly zero credible news sources.

replies(2): >>manuel+zE >>AzzieE+pd1
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15. zpeti+tn[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 16:42:39
>>manuel+Li
No, wait for the scientific evidence. But both trump and the media took a stance without any evidence, pro and against.

Both are just as bad as each other.

replies(1): >>manuel+5p
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16. bart_s+Rn[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 16:44:11
>>manuel+j9
He's wrong about those outlets being reliable, but those outlets weren't considered reliable before his presidency either. The term "fake news" wasn't even in the lexicon before 2015-16, and it certainly wasn't something that most people considered would be coming from outlets like NYT or the Washington Post. That's absolutely something that he was right about. It may be a case of a broken clock being right twice a day, but that doesn't mean he wasn't right.
replies(1): >>manuel+py
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17. manuel+wo[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 16:47:20
>>zpeti+zi
> It’s very easy to come to that conclusion about your own sides media.

The fact that a group of people believe certain lies, doesn't make those lies acceptable, either.

I couldn't care less about what republicans think of NYT versus OANN. Yes, they may think that OANN is a better source. Still, they would be wrong.

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18. manuel+5p[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 16:50:10
>>zpeti+tn
> Both are just as bad as each other.

This couldn't be further from the truth.

An assertion without evidente is a lie. Pointing out that someone is making assertions without evidente is not a lie.

If Trump were to say that the sky is actually orange, and provided no evidence, would you take on the media for reporting that what he said had no foundation on reality?

That's nuts.

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19. tzs+Eq[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 16:55:07
>>zpeti+06
I recall several early articles in mainstream media reporting early research showing positive effects from Hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID. Then when flaws were found in the early research, and newer research showed that it didn't help, they reported that. It had nothing to do with Trump.
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20. Izkata+ps[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 17:02:15
>>zpeti+06
> Now I know that the scientific community proved that it doesn’t work.

Even that I'm not so sure about. This is a collection of all the HCQ studies: https://c19hcq.com/

Early treatment at lower dosages (lower compared to the "negative results" studies) seems to show positive results pretty consistently.

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21. Viliam+ht[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 17:05:40
>>xanaxa+I7
It's the eternal struggle between neutrals and conservatives: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/01/neutral-vs-conservativ...
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22. manuel+py[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 17:30:04
>>bart_s+Rn
> The term "fake news" wasn't even in the lexicon before 2015-16

Not the exact term itself, but the significancy of it. The "lying press" is a pejorative used since at least the XIX century [1].

Are we looking for 100% reliability here? Then, yes, we could call the NYT or the WP "fake news". But that is just hyperbole, directed at creating doubt and uncertainty where it does not exist. Once Trump followers had a excuse to label the NYT as "partisan" or "fake", it was easy for Trump to steer the narrative any way he wanted.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lying_press

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23. Paradi+4C[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 17:46:46
>>zpeti+zi
CNN or the NYT are also reporting differing arguments/facts and correct themself if they made a mistake. Havent seen that happening on OANN or NewsMax without a court order.
replies(1): >>jkings+441
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24. manuel+zE[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 17:58:10
>>xanaxa+7k
> It's been clear to a lot of us ...

This is a belief. This is a believer speaking.

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25. adamre+tG[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 18:08:11
>>zpeti+06
Media reporting that dismisses the use of a potentially harmful drug to treat an illness without a full peer-reviewed study should be standard operating procedure.

Consider thalidomide:

https://helix.northwestern.edu/article/thalidomide-tragedy-l...

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26. HWR_14+DM[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 18:40:35
>>epicur+Y1
I don't know anyone who associated the lab escape theory with racism or xenophobia. Closing down flights from China (and only China) after it spread throughout Europe, that I do understand being associated with racism.

I do know that, unless you want to advocate nuking China (the official US government response to biowarfare) or you think they have a secret cure, it's meaningless.

And, yes, I'm glad that it got ignored while Trump was in power. I think the odds that he would decided to launch nukes in response was unacceptably high (as in, not zero.)

replies(2): >>misja1+ZV >>epicur+911
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27. wearyw+0V[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 19:25:44
>>zpeti+jc
Of course we know fox is partisan, but it's certainly not because they admit it about themselves. They vaunt themselves as "fair and balanced", while clearly acting otherwise. Is this so different from the NYT presenting itself as "objective and not really partisan", even when we know otherwise?
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28. misja1+ZV[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 19:32:26
>>HWR_14+DM
The closing of flights from China took place on January 31st. There was no notion of a spread through Europa whatsoever at that time.

You might be interested to know, that Trump was already informed about the seriousness of the outbreak in Wuhan in early January. However at that time he chose not to act on it because it might harm the ongoing negotiations over a trade deal with China. So if you want to blame Trump for something, it would actually make more sense to blame him for closing the flights from China too late.

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29. headme+FW[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 19:35:46
>>zpeti+06
Fox very much claims to be objective.

“Fair and balanced” I believe the slogan is.

Nonetheless, you are correct.

Fox/Sky are shameless hard right propagandists.

Sadly, CNN/Nbc are hard left propagandists. I don’t know enough of the history to say that was always the case as it is for Fox/Sky, but it certainly is today.

It’s disheartening to think that even once respected papers like the Guardian have become so departed from objective journalism. I can’t help but think that journalistic freedom of speech is ultimately on borrowed time if the situation becomes much worse.

I’ve taken to following Reuters for news now, but even then I don’t know if what I’m watching is well sourced or it just happens to agree with my own biases more often than not.

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30. epicur+911[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 19:59:49
>>HWR_14+DM
There are other solutions, like handing them a bill for damages, and nationalizing all their property we can get our hands on if they don't pay it.
replies(2): >>HWR_14+eX1 >>totalZ+yS2
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31. jkings+441[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 20:15:42
>>Paradi+4C
For a contrasting point of view, here's an article from a conservative, religious writer who follows how the media covers religion stories from 2014. In this article (and is a common theme in his writing), he discusses "Kellerism" a term named after Bill Keller, a former New York Times editor who said in 2011 how the New York Times does not seek balance in a whole bunch of areas. The author, Terry Mattingly, has over the years documented many cases in which CNN, NYT and other similar outlets don't cover stories that intersect with religion or religously affiliated people or communities fairly (seemingly, in many cases, because the authors covering the stories lack the basic knowledge to even raise questions allowing for balance).

https://www.getreligion.org/getreligion/2014/8/2/this-keller...

replies(2): >>manuel+cb1 >>Paradi+kz2
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32. manuel+cb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 20:58:32
>>jkings+441
The remarks that sparked the analysis are hardly proof of the NYT being "unfair" to conservatives, unless stating that, say, creationism is not science, and gay marriage is legal, could be considered as such.
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33. AzzieE+pd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 21:11:19
>>xanaxa+7k
I do not think it is clear at all, even today. What is completely clear though is that corporate media and academia went to great lengths to protect bat/wet-market origins theory and went completely inquisitional on anyone who raised doubts. This is not how media or science supposed to work unless we live in China or USSR
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34. stjohn+Tl1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 22:09:23
>>xanaxa+I7
Trump was hot garbage and nothing he said could be taken seriously, at best it was his demented world view at worst it was outright lies to soothe his white-racist base. News is obviously biased but your statement of "if something is reported..." is also conspiratorial nonsense. Sure they fuck up but mostly they are dead on when you extract the facts from the the opinion.
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35. nescio+wr1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-24 22:53:11
>>manuel+Sg
Partisanship is committing to a party; it is signing up with a team; it is taking sides. That is binary.

Don't confuse that with having an ideology or a commitment to certain ideas.

You can be partisan (or have an ideology) and still be trustworthy, but the trouble with that is, you actually have to be trustworthy.

I'd rather compare the NYT with The Economist on this point.

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36. paul_f+sF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-25 00:50:02
>>manuel+Sg
This is a straw-man. People are not legitimately comparing NYT to OANN and NewsMax, they are comparing NYT to the New York Post, the Wall Street Journal and Fox News.
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37. HWR_14+eX1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-25 04:28:21
>>epicur+911
That's not something that has happened in over a century between countries, because last time it was attempted some Austrian guy convinced Germany that the best way to get back the financial losses was to start a second world war.
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38. Paradi+kz2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-25 10:04:28
>>jkings+441
My point is not that NYT and co are reporting according to some arbitrary fair and balanced standard. The point is that they are reporting differing views/arguments at all which is not something OANN or NewsMax do.
replies(1): >>jkings+Jpf
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39. totalZ+JR2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-25 12:39:35
>>zpeti+06
Oh, come on. Trump said all sorts of things that the media didn't oppose. And some of the battles that he fought actually made some sense. He also spouted some ridiculous BS pretty frequently.

The reason why the Hydroxychloroquine suggestions were dismissed is simple: science involves an empirical epistemology and that means undemonstrated hypotheses are not treated as true.

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40. totalZ+yS2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-25 12:48:06
>>epicur+911
We gain so much more by fomenting international resentment toward China. The whole situation exemplifies how authoritarianism and lackadaisical safety practices can reduce costs and improve efficiency while increasing the incidence of disasters that wipe out all those benefits.

Trying to quantify harms and seize assets makes the pandemic seem like a unary problem rather than the result of profound ideological weaknesses.

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41. twox2+RL3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-25 17:19:05
>>xanaxa+I7
That's not at all what Trump meant by "fake news" - what he meant by "fake news" was, "their narrative goes against mine, it's a like, so buy into the narrative from this other media outlet that supports me instead."
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42. jkings+Jpf[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-05-29 10:41:16
>>Paradi+kz2
I can't say I've ever read OANN or NewsMax, even though I am conservative. I have read the New York Times before though, and as the linked article and several others by the same journalist indicate, evidently the Times is selective about showing differing views.
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