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1. lhorie+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-04-09 15:53:04
> has poor wet market sanitation practices

Honest question: Is that a fair/accurate generalization to make? If Hell's kitchen episodes and accounts from food industry workers are any indication, sanitation practices in food handling establishments elsewhere are not necessarily always stellar either. And surely China has some equivalent of WholeFoods?

One ought to be careful not to attribute a characteristic differently depending on whether they belong to the class of people in question[0]. If it turns out that reality is that some chinese establishments have poor sanitation practices just like some US establishments do, and it just so happens that they got unlucky (perhaps partially due to not-so-directly-related aspects like zoning law differences or propensity for higher bat populations due to local fauna/flora ecosystems), the us-vs-them blaming game doesn't necessarily have as strong legs to stand on.

[0] https://xkcd.com/385/

replies(4): >>lanceb+Md >>lazide+Le >>cthalu+Yf >>bluGil+gI
2. lanceb+Md[view] [source] 2021-04-09 17:01:03
>>lhorie+(OP)
>If Hell's kitchen episodes and accounts from food industry workers are any indication, sanitation practices in food handling establishments elsewhere are not necessarily always stellar either.

The issue with wet markets isn't the sanitary practices of their workers so much as the fact that meat and other food is handled in very close proximity to live animals being slaughtered, and this combined with a large volume of foot traffic. Granted, I haven't seen all episodes of Kitchen Nightmares, but I've never seen slaughter of any kind taking place at a restaurant in that show, let alone at a restaurant that is visited by tens of thousands of people each day.

3. lazide+Le[view] [source] 2021-04-09 17:05:14
>>lhorie+(OP)
Have you seen a easy Asian wet market in person before? If you’re comparing it to Whole Foods I’m not sure you have?

The term itself is somewhat ambiguous [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_market] in that it can cover both cases. However the style common in many places in China (and many other areas in east Asia) is one where there is no refrigeration or adequate sanitation. To avoid spoilage, animals are brought in live and slaughtered as needed to provide meat. It can be when a customer picks it, or when needed to stock a counter.

These styles of market are problematic disease wise because it brings many species of animals together in crowded and often unsanitary conditions, high stress, with humans in close contact with them, and lots of people and animals coming and going constantly.

If you’re looking for a way to encourage Zoonotic disease, it’s hard to do better.

replies(4): >>srean+cj >>lhorie+Kk >>ska+6w >>citrus+WE
4. cthalu+Yf[view] [source] 2021-04-09 17:10:30
>>lhorie+(OP)
They aren't equivalent, and it's not even solely a factor of sanitation. You are keeping tons of live animals in cages in close proximity to each other and tons of people. Stress is extremely effective at weakening immune response, which makes it easier for pathogens to replicate, jump hosts, and jump species. Now the pathogen is an a different environment, which begins to force adaptation, which is to say the pathogens that mutate in beneficial ways to their new environment begin to outcompete the rest. And this just keeps happening. And happening. And happening. And with new strains of disease brought in from pathogen reservoirs in the wild.

There's only so much good sanitation processes could even achieve here, in the same way there's only so much that bad sanitation processes at a restaurant can do. Bad sanitation in a restaurant almost always means an increase in known pathogens that we can either take care of fairly easily, or even in the worst case scenarios of something such as botulism, have limited ability to spread among the general population.

The risk of an unsanitized kitchen is just totally different from that of even a somewhat sanitized wet market.

replies(1): >>hnbad+Dh
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5. hnbad+Dh[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-09 17:18:50
>>cthalu+Yf
I've been to "fish markets" in Germany that kept live animals (mostly poultry and rabbits) in cages in close proximity to each other and tons of people. Just because it's uncommon or illegal in the US doesn't mean it's exotic or unusual in the rest of the world. We only freak out about "wet markets" because 1) the name sounds gross (but it's catchier than "perishable goods street market", I guess) and 2) orientalism.
replies(1): >>cthalu+jy
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6. srean+cj[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-09 17:25:00
>>lazide+Le
> If you’re comparing it to Whole Foods I’m not sure you have?

From the way I read it, he is not making that comparison

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7. lhorie+Kk[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-09 17:31:10
>>lazide+Le
To be clear, I didn't mean to compare a butcher shop to a Whole Foods, but rather to point out that not all food markets are live animal markets, and that blanket statements like "China does X" can gloss over the fact that every country has nuances.

Your link suggests that the primary factor of disease transmission in live animal markets is the exoticness of the slaughtered animals. It certainly makes sense to make a distinction based on that criteria, since, for example, I can find high traffic markets that sell live animals in North America as well, though typically they sell less exotic animals (most commonly, lobsters).

This distinction, I feel, is meaningful because of the implications: north american diet is relatively restricted in terms of meat variety (we do mostly beef, pork, chicken, maybe lamb and few other meats on fairly rare occasions - even chicken gizzard isn't commonly consumed, for example). I'm not familiar enough with China to say to what extent exotic meat consumption is cultural vs driven by necessity vs other factors.

However, I do still feel that it might be crass to say things like "well chinese people ought to stop eating weird shit and close those filthy markets", without understanding the circumstances that lead to the status quo, and consequently how they could be changed realistically. (To be clear, I'm not saying you specifically are making these types of comments, but it's not an unpopular sentiment)

replies(2): >>lazide+FJ >>Vintag+cU
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8. ska+6w[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-09 18:27:14
>>lazide+Le
> for a way to encourage Zoonotic disease, it’s hard to do better.

CAFO style agriculture is a front-runner also.

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9. cthalu+jy[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-09 18:36:22
>>hnbad+Dh
If the wet markets in china were just poultry and rabbits, it would not be an issue. We have a good understanding of the potential zoonotic diseases from those vectors.

We - including China - do not have a good understanding of the potential zoonotic diseases from the large variety of wild game that is captured and sold in these markets.

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10. citrus+WE[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-09 19:04:51
>>lazide+Le
>Have you seen a easy Asian wet market in person before? If you’re comparing it to Whole Foods I’m not sure you have?

Have you seen one in the last decade? It's changed dramatically, and ranges from an open-air grocery store to yes something more depressing like what is in that wiki article.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whbyuy2nHBg

replies(1): >>lazide+QN
11. bluGil+gI[view] [source] 2021-04-09 19:21:14
>>lhorie+(OP)
Wet markets are not as sanitary as others. However all evidence we have suggest that covid was first spread there, not that it originated there. Someone got covid - we don't know who or how - and then went to the wet market. That person could have gone to any crowded local venue and spread it just as well, but it seems they didn't.
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12. lazide+FJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-09 19:29:03
>>lhorie+Kk
Definitely a valid point - there is a huge variety in what it looks like on the ground. Your other point re: availability, cost, etc is also right on point and part of what I was trying to cover.

The variety angle is because 1) the more factors you can roll the dice on at any given moment, the more likely you can come up ‘winning’ with a magically terrible combo through mutation. That ocelot flu mutate to something that could infect bats? Groovy. No bats though, so doesn’t go anywhere. If you have bats though.....

2) Many animal viruses can be low or no impact in a species, and some can infect others to different effects. This gives a given virus more chances to roll the dice and get the ‘magic’ combo without killing itself off by killing the host. The more other species it gets exposed to; the better.

3) some species have elements more common with humans than others. If a virus gets mostly infectious in one host, adapting in another environment can get it closer to dangerous to humans.

Also, if you live in an area without solid electricity or reliable refrigerated trucks - what else are you supposed to do? If you grew up in one of those areas, why bother with the more expensive option if you’re used to this (or poor and don’t have a choice).

A lot of our simplification in diet now is due to the ability to choose higher grade options coupled with strict government regulations on how food sold to the public can be sourced and the conditions it can be ‘made’ in. It used to be (several generations ago now), wild hunted deer, pidgeons, squirrel, a side of pork from your neighbor, etc. were common parts of daily food intake, and you HAD to cook your food or you wouldn’t go a week without something really nasty happening to you. There are many parts of the county that still do this, though usually more out of convenience than necessity.

Now you can pick from animals raised for purpose, with supply chains inspected and complying with a books worth of regulations. In many cases, you could go years without getting sick if you didn’t cook your food (don’t try this, it’s still a dumb idea).

It’s easy to point fingers, but if you haven’t seen it and lived in the environment, you can’t just change it without a lot of other things happening first or very nasty side effects (starvation, nutritional issues, etc).

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13. lazide+QN[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-09 19:50:26
>>citrus+WE
That is great to see, though for instance half that video would have flagged a US health inspector. Much cleaner than what I saw in Vietnam, Malaysia, or less high end areas of Hong Kong, or friends in Beijing or Fujian were used to when they lived in China. I can’t be sure how serious to take Foxnews in this regard, since you can pick and choose a lot of course.

Cities have been improving, and I don’t doubt Covid is helping. SARS seemed to help a lot in Singapore.

The comparison to Whole Foods with consistent refridgeration, regular clearing, limited supplies, regular health inspections still seems unlikely anywhere outside of the major metros.

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14. Vintag+cU[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-09 20:23:52
>>lhorie+Kk
There is a big wet market in Wuhan, pretty close to the virus research lab.

According to the below video, eating exotic wildlife dates back to the starvation conditions of the Mao years and is now mostly practiced by the rich. The conditions in which these animals are kept are unsanitary, even by comparison to a market with live animals that you might be familiar with in the US.

There was a push to end the practice after SARS-CoV-1, but they came back a few years ago.

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/videos/2020/3/6/21168006/co...

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