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1. newacc+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-04-09 15:36:03
> 2. It's not xenophobic for people from the US to suggest the possibility of a lab leak

Inherently? Of course not. But does xenophobia motivate a lot of this argument? It certainly seems to. Look at how quickly proponents of this nonsense jump from detached discussion about the possibilities to outraged condemnation of the PRC. Just read the discussion here in this thread.

If you only wanted to discuss the lab and the virus and try to put relative likelihoods on the natural evolution vs. Andromeda Strain theories, that would be one thing. But... that doesn't seem to be all you want.

replies(2): >>daniel+b2 >>bruise+AS
2. daniel+b2[view] [source] 2021-04-09 15:44:12
>>newacc+(OP)
Just because the motivation for the argument is bad, it doesn't mean that the argument itself is bad. I think you agree by saying it's not "inherently" xenophobic.

All we need to do to take xenophobia out of this discussion is to not be xenophobic ourselves. The xenophobes may talk to themselves. But let's make sure we are talking about this problem instead of falling for the "guilty by association fallacy".

replies(1): >>newacc+Yn1
3. bruise+AS[view] [source] 2021-04-09 19:52:43
>>newacc+(OP)
Excuse me but PRC = People's Republic of China correct?

How would it be xenophobic to criticize a government? This conflation is so pervasive and toxic to the discourse.

The Chinese government does bear some of the responsibility here. The Chinese people do not. At a minimum, they actively tried to cover-up an investigation into a leak and leaned on the World Health Organization in order to do so.

This had two negative affects globally. First is the slowed response time from the rest of the World as they were assured this was mild and contained. Second is the rightfully degraded trust in the WHO which will impede ongoing and future efforts not only to stop Covid-19 but also future pandemics.

The reason right-wing media sources are the only ones talking about this is because they are the only ones with the freedom to do so. If we do not like that some of these source are implying that Chinese people as a group are to blame, then that is an invitation for more mainstream outlets to stop carrying water for the Chinese and American governments.

Be upfront, the WHO was compromised by the Chinese government. There could have been a leak, a hypothesis that is looking more likely with each passing week. If this was in fact a leak, then gain of function research could also be implicated. This produces a conflict of interest with experts in the field because their funding and research may utilize gain of function methods.

Done.

This was a known unknown over a year ago, but stifled due to political interests. The casting of xenophobic aspersions onto the right-leaning media sources who got this correct is an attempt at damage control for the same political interests.

I get it. Admitting those media sources were better when it really mattered means fewer people will get vaccinated and we may get a Trump 2.0. That is the political price of lying and getting caught. Jacketing all these conversations with underlying accusations of "well they were right but also racist" is not going to be a win. If you want to win you have to actually be better.

replies(1): >>newacc+Hn1
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4. newacc+Hn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-09 22:52:28
>>bruise+AS
With all respect, this sounds very much like "It's not xenophobia if your fear of the foreigners is justified".
replies(1): >>bruise+Iw1
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5. newacc+Yn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-09 22:54:35
>>daniel+b2
> Just because the motivation for the argument is bad, it doesn't mean that the argument itself is bad.

Inherently? Of course not. But in practice it tends to act as a good prior for detecting bullshit. How many of these people would really be making the same argument in this way had the virus appeared in Bonn or Montreal?

And again, to repeat: in this particular situation we have a very acceptable, very convincing, very obvious hypothesis for covid origins that simply does not require trafficking in badly-motivated argument.

At the end of the day there's no strong evidence, we all agree on that. So I choose to believe something obvious that fits the data and patterns previous events, and others... choose to believe that a (literal!) conspiracy is afoot acting to cover up wrongdoing by an evil foreign nation. And that's bad.

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6. bruise+Iw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-10 00:17:50
>>newacc+Hn1
> The Chinese government does bear some of the responsibility here. The Chinese people do not.

I don't know how much clearer I can make a distinction between a people and their government in words. I do not consider myself responsible for the decisions of Dick Cheney and Obama. Nor would I consider a random Chinese person responsible for the actions of Tedros Adhanom or Xi Jinping.

I would find someone blaming a Chinese or Chinese-American person on a subway for the coronavirus misguided and wrong.

I would find someone critiquing the Chinese governments response to the virus very justifiable.

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