zlacker

[parent] [thread] 31 comments
1. newscr+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-04-07 15:19:48
So it just took close to a year to dump thousands of private commits into the public repo! Is there an official response as to why they stopped sharing the code for so long and more importantly, why they started sharing it publicly again? Who gains what with the publication now? And seriously, why is it even relevant anymore?
replies(6): >>jivetu+B1 >>nimbiu+r2 >>amyjes+Rb >>Sander+0g >>est31+kg >>nilesh+ji
2. jivetu+B1[view] [source] 2021-04-07 15:26:27
>>newscr+(OP)
I think it's proof that security (and privacy) doesn't matter. So it is very relevant. (As if telegram as competitor isn't enough proof.)

The entirety of the signal "stack" depends on the SGX enclave. The fact that no one, in all time, has bothered to notice that the running code is different than the published code, is telling.

There's actually a newer SGX exploit, and related mitigation, that came to light at about the same time when they released their discovery protocol. Those mitigations were never backported to the base signal functionality. That no one audited and complained about this says quite a lot.

I've not looked at this code dump but perhaps the newer fixes finally made their way in. Or have been there all along.

replies(1): >>ajconw+Q2
3. nimbiu+r2[view] [source] 2021-04-07 15:29:53
>>newscr+(OP)
better question yet: Did we ever get a full post-mortem of the six day outage the service had? other than hand waving statements about user subscriptions? what fixes were made or lessons learned?
replies(1): >>ddevau+O8
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4. ajconw+Q2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 15:32:08
>>jivetu+B1
> The fact that no one, in all time, has bothered to notice that the running code is different than the published code

It’s client apps who verify (via attestation) that the code inside an SGX enclave is what they expect it to be, and clients are open source.

> The entirety of the signal "stack" depends on the SGX enclave

Only private contact discovery depends on trusting SGX.

replies(1): >>jivetu+f7
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5. jivetu+f7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 15:48:32
>>ajconw+Q2
> It’s client apps who verify (via attestation) that the code inside an SGX enclave is what they expect it to be, and clients are open source.

If the attestation signature matches the published enclave code, then we can know if there's a match. So either there's a missing mitigation, which no one ever has complained about, or the running enclave code doesn't match the source, which also no one ever has complained about. Without independent audit, there is no verification and we have established that independent parties do not care.

> Only private contact discovery depends on trusting SGX.

uh, no. this is demonstrably and obviously wrong.

replies(2): >>feanar+bb >>tylers+Sf
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6. ddevau+O8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 15:54:51
>>nimbiu+r2
The Signal outage was SIX DAYS?
replies(2): >>saurik+0d >>stjohn+cX
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7. feanar+bb[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 16:04:26
>>jivetu+f7
> uh, no. this is demonstrably and obviously wrong.

Yes? How?

8. amyjes+Rb[view] [source] 2021-04-07 16:07:29
>>newscr+(OP)
My guess is that the whole public repo thing was just one employee's idea, nobody else at the company cared, and that employee either forgot about it or was too busy to do it for months.
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9. saurik+0d[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 16:12:02
>>ddevau+O8
(All the news I'm finding is that it was just one day.)
replies(1): >>uoaei+tN
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10. tylers+Sf[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 16:25:03
>>jivetu+f7
Then please demonstrate.
11. Sander+0g[view] [source] 2021-04-07 16:25:59
>>newscr+(OP)
> Is there an official response as to why they stopped sharing the code for so long

Not oficially, but see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26725117. They stopped publishing code when they started on the cryptocurrency integration.

12. est31+kg[view] [source] 2021-04-07 16:27:28
>>newscr+(OP)
The first commit that they omitted in April 2020 is related to the payment feature they just announced. So the two events coinciding (server code being published and payment feature being announced) might not have been a coincidence. They apparently didn't want to bother creating a private test server running a private fork of the server code and just pushed their experiments to production, just not releasing the source code to prevent people from seeing the feature before an official announcement. They neccessarily built test client apps because I couldn't find any old commit mentioning payments in the client app git log.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26718134

replies(1): >>thepti+bi
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13. thepti+bi[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 16:36:42
>>est31+kg
This leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. Unclear how much practical damage this caused (how many security analysts are using the Signal server source to look for vulns?) but this is damaging to the project's claims of transparency and trustworthiness.

It’s quite clear that this crypto integration provides a perverse incentive for the project that points in the opposite direction of security.

replies(3): >>ignora+uj >>_dibly+vk >>kelnos+IS
14. nilesh+ji[view] [source] 2021-04-07 16:37:25
>>newscr+(OP)
Here's a response by MobileCoin folks:

> Signal had to verify that MobileCoin worked before exposing their users to the technology. That process took a long time because MobileCoin has lots of complicated moving parts.

> With respect to price, no one truly understands the market. It’s impossible to predict future price.

- https://twitter.com/mobilecoin/status/1379830618876338179

Reeks of utter BS. As the reply on this tweet says, features can be developed while being kept switched off with a flag.

replies(1): >>dewey+Tj
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15. ignora+uj[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 16:41:41
>>thepti+bi
It was called out as recently as 4 weeks ago [0] and was voted to the front-page but then weighted-out possibly incorrectly by mods (may be because the top comment is dismissive of concerns raised [1]?) before a discussion could flourish.

cc: @dang

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26345937

[1] The title is the only thing worth reading in this pile of speculation and hand waving.

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16. dewey+Tj[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 16:43:53
>>nilesh+ji
> features can be developed while being kept switched off with a flag

But maybe you don't want everyone to know about all the features / announcements months in advance?

replies(1): >>vinay4+0o
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17. _dibly+vk[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 16:45:56
>>thepti+bi
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but how exactly is that the case?

It's been damaging to their claims of transparency for almost a year now, if anything this should be the first step in repairing that slight. How is dumping a year's worth of private work into your public repo somehow doing damage to their trustworthiness?

replies(2): >>thepti+jn >>stjohn+XV
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18. thepti+jn[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 17:00:10
>>_dibly+vk
You're right that the damage to trustworthiness was always there. (I.e. they did the damage when they stopped publishing their source code, and they compounded that damage the longer they declined to publish their code). My point was more that the damage now seems to be directly attributable to the new payments integration.

Prior to seeing this post, I was already concerned that adding a crypto/payments integration would damage the Signal project, and this appears to be an immediate example of the kind of harms/perverse incentives I was concerned about.

(A counterargument to my theory here would perhaps be "Signal was always doing stuff like declining to publish their server code even prior to the payments integration", I'm not familiar enough with the history of the project to know the details there.)

replies(1): >>_dibly+xq
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19. vinay4+0o[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 17:03:11
>>dewey+Tj
They already did this development privately. I don't think anyone has a problem with building out a new feature before it's announced. The problem people have, IMO understandably, is that they pushed this code to production servers instead of testing it privately.
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20. _dibly+xq[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 17:17:19
>>thepti+jn
Reading the other article on HN definitely helped me understand more. I think really it comes down to me not understanding why they had so much trustworthiness to begin with.

They've been obscuring their code for about a year and even then, it's not like Signal has always come out and said "we love the passion our fellow developers have for our commitment to privacy and security". They just let people sell their relatives on that promise and waited until they had a massive userbase to start monetizing their platform.

Thanks for your reply, I just wonder where all this trustworthiness has been coming from for the last 12 months while they've been quietly working on the platform without publishing any changes. It feels like a beta tester for a game being mad that there were lootboxes in the full release of the game when they weren't in the beta. Even if you didn't know they were coming, you had to assume something like it was inevitable given enough traction.

replies(1): >>mindsl+UE
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21. mindsl+UE[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 18:14:42
>>_dibly+xq
Signal's choices never really felt right, as their justifications tended towards authoritarian paternalism - eg willfull reliance on Play services, keeping it out of F-Droid (which while flawed as Signal pointed out, seems to be the best we currently have), bottleneck centralized servers, and phone numbers as primary identifiers (?!).

But the standard Free Software development/distribution model does lack in some areas. And so Signal got a bunch of community leeway for going against the grain, in the hopes that a fresh approach would somehow bear fruit.

We're now apparently seeing some of the fruit from that approach.

replies(1): >>iudqno+421
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22. uoaei+tN[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 18:50:27
>>saurik+0d
As I recall it was 1-2 days, yeah.
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23. kelnos+IS[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 19:10:35
>>thepti+bi
The server being or not being secure is only important to the people who operate it. You can examine the client code and see that your messages are encrypted end to end. Signal's entire security model revolves around the idea that you don't need to trust the server.
replies(1): >>thepti+5Y
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24. stjohn+XV[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 19:24:09
>>_dibly+vk
For one security through obscurity is a thing. Depending on it as your primary "security measure" is stupid on all levels but being part of your security is not a bad thing. Before all someone could get would be your chat history. Other than police, jilted lovers, and state actors no one else gives a crap about that most likely unless you are targeted as an individual. Now by adding access to money that might be accessible via Signal adds more incentive for hackers to not try to hack something else and now make a beeline for Signal. Also it dilutes the efforts of the Signal developers efforts to make a better messaging app. Also crypto in and of itself is questionable, but one that is 85% by one entity waiting to liquidate has been questioned by many organizations as well. The people who own that will expect fair value for it and in essence become billionaires several times over if this really comes to fruition.
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25. stjohn+cX[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 19:28:34
>>ddevau+O8
no it wasn't
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26. thepti+5Y[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 19:31:37
>>kelnos+IS
There's no concern about metadata leakage?
replies(1): >>outime+Lg1
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27. iudqno+421[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 19:49:20
>>mindsl+UE
I don't agree with adding cryptocurrencies, but I was very sympathetic to the play services argument. Android is very difficult to program for, and it's even more difficult without play services.

For notifications the alternatives are noticably worse (higher battery usage because you can't coordinate request timings with other apps, an annoying permanent notification), and the leakage is minimal. If you protect your encrypted packets from Google the NSA will see them anyway.

Your custom implementation will be quite complicated, and if you only enable it for a small subset of your users it'll be a pain to debug.

replies(1): >>mindsl+Zd1
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28. mindsl+Zd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 20:37:53
>>iudqno+421
I said willfully for a reason, as opposed to just reluctantly.

I agree about the sorry state of non-Google notifications on Android. I wish someone would make a common notification framework for the Free world that would be installed alongside system-level F-Droid. Although F-Droid Conversations and Element notifications do work fine for me, regardless of purportedly less battery life, I can understand not everyone wants to make the same choice.

However, I'm referencing more than the notifications issue. I recall an early thread from Signal where they touted the benefits of fully opting into the Google ecosystem - the gist was that Google has expended all of this effort on security and they wanted to take advantage of it to bring security to the masses. And that simply doesn't line up with my own threat model, in which Google is one of the most significant attackers.

replies(1): >>rOOb85+Pd2
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29. outime+Lg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 20:50:10
>>thepti+5Y
Even if you have access to an up-to-date source code it doesn't guarantee at all they'd be running a completely different version if so they wish. I mean this have just happened yet this question kind of implies you'd still trust such entity to run the server from the source code you have access to. I hope this collective illusion dies already.
replies(1): >>thepti+wP1
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30. thepti+wP1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-07 23:58:40
>>outime+Lg1
True, neither the absence of an identified vuln in published source code, nor the absence of published source code can guarantee that you don't have vulns. And sure, a bad-faith operator can always back-door the server and run different code.

But, a good-faith operator can find and fix bugs faster if they operate in the open and in collaboration with the community. "Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow" etc.

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31. rOOb85+Pd2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-08 03:16:28
>>mindsl+Zd1
> Signal where they touted the benefits of fully opting into the Google ecosystem - the gist was that Google has expended all of this effort on security and they wanted to take advantage of it to bring security to the masses

What exactly do they rely on google for? They use them for their push notifications and they use some google servers on the back end.

They do offer the app on the app store as 99% of android users get their apps that way, but signal also offers app downloads from the signal website if the user doesn't want to use play store.

replies(1): >>mindsl+804
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32. mindsl+804[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-08 17:35:19
>>rOOb85+Pd2
I wish I could find the original source. It was an early post by Moxie about how embracing the Google ecosystem would give security to the masses of users, rather than worrying about the technical crowd that wants to be free of Google.
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