zlacker

What should be truly frightening is that you don't seem to believe that societies should take responsibilites for their mistakes and their wrongdoings. A group of people is opressed for centuries? Well, that's sad, but oh well?

"It is unjust that it happened the way it did, it is sad, it is inexcusable, but it is also already done."

Ok cool, I guess we just do nothing and live our lives. Millions of people being practically sentenced to poverty, to lack of healthcare and education, specifically because of systematic discrimination against them - well, bygones should be bygones, right? After all, I didn't do it, it was some other people who lived before me, why should I do anything now. Best we can do is give everyone equal opportunity, and ignore the fact that certain groups can hardly meet those "equal" standards due to systemic injustices that were done to them. Is that fair to you? Is that equal to you?

>>The only hope we have, and if we owe them anything we owe them this, is to create a better future by not repeating the mistakes of the past.

I'll use my German example for the 3rd and last time(I promise) - Obviously after WW2 ended the correct course of action for Germany wasn't to just say "well, the best we can do is just promise we'll never do this again". German people actively try to make it right for the countries they attacked, even if they make their own population poorer as a result. That's how you create the better future - by actively trying to make it right by the people who have been wronged, not just ignoring the issue.

>>so much superiority from up high above the rest of us so I’ll never be able to change your mind

The funny thing is, the exact same applies to you. I also won't be able to change your mind, you're also completely solid in your beliefs. But that's the nature of the discussion - you might be able to chip at my beliefs, I might be able to chip away at yours. The problem won't be decided in some HN comments after all.

>>gambit+(OP)
You are arguing against what you think I’m saying instead of what I’m actually saying, so I’ll simplify it for you.

Oppression is the symptom not the cause. Segregation is the cause. Every time you promote segregation you are nursing oppression, and it will grow. Group-think is segregation.

I’m not saying do nothing. I’m saying don’t do what has already been proven not only to not work but to make things worse. Segregation makes things worse.

>>insert+z9
But you seem to equate the acknowledgement that some people have it worse with segregation. That by saying some social groups have it worse due to the centuries of injustices and therefore they should have temporary preferential treatment to reduce(key word here) their poverty levels is to perpetuate segregation. It's not, because the opportunities given to different groups are not equal specifically as the result of earlier segregation.

So if you don't help them out now, that's what's increasing segregation because their state doesn't improve, we never reach the state of equality of opportunity if some sides have a permanent handicap due to earlier injustices. You're saying that helping out is what perpetuates segregation - it's the exact opposite.

>>gambit+3q
That is like saying “don’t you understand! they were killed in the past, just let them do a little killing now to equilibrate things.”

Sometimes the opposite action is not what is needed to regain balance.

Affirmative action is what is keeping them poor. Segregation is what is keeping them poor. Give them special treatment and that is all you’ll make them, special, not equal. Integration, real integration which includes competition is what is needed. They need to earn their place because that is the only sure way they’ll keep it, and that is the only way others will respect them enough to treat them equally.

>>gambit+3q
I think you are missing the point that the other poster is attempting to argue. If you look at the recent revival and rejuvenation of alt-right and far right politics that has recently occurred in the US and actually look at their media what it is that they are saying? It isn't some racist screed it is things like complaining that college admissions are no longer fair for white or asian males. Immigration issues are often framed as being not about hate of a minority but about the potential loss of opportunities for white/asian men in society.

The main complaint that has driven this entire recent cycle of upswing in alt-right and far right movements is this preferential treatment and critiques of it. Young white men who complain about college admission inequality get sucked into a siphon of hatred at inequality and preferential treatment that ends in racism. So like the other person was trying to argue, "helping out is what perpetuates segregation". This inequality breeds statistically significant increases in racial hatred even if it has a good intent.

>>insert+xP
>> They need to earn their place because that is the only sure way they’ll keep it, and that is the only way others will respect them enough to treat them equally.

I mean, you went full on racist here. I imagine you weren't planning to, but just read that sentence back a few times.

It's like.....yeah we(as American society) treated you like shit, denied you every opportunity, and now the only way to make things right is for you to compete and prove that we can respect you and treat you equally.

Like, again, just read what you're even saying. It's far more scary than anything I've said.

>>gambit+431
> I mean, you went full on racist here. I imagine you weren't planning to, but just read that sentence back a few times.

Wow, the segregationist calling others racist.

Good bye.

>>insert+Ok1
>>I thought I was talking to someone mature

If that's any consolation - so did I, but then you suggested that opressed groups have to earn respect to be treated equally. Should have come out with that line right at the beginning and saved us both a good amount of time.

>>gambit+4l1
Hey, I have read the discussion between you and insert_coin and I think you have slightly misunderstood what they are saying. From what I see, both of you are for improved lives of the historically-oppressed minorities in America. insert_coin said "I’m not saying do nothing" and I think that points to them disagreeing with the means taken to achieve the desired outcome (i.e. better lives for the minorities).