zlacker

[parent] [thread] 9 comments
1. snoshy+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-01-22 19:27:06
Electrical distribution in the US is actually aging quite badly and is in deep need of replacement of large parts of it. Inefficiency isn't entirely the problem, although many (including me) would argue that it isn't as efficient as it could be. DC power transmission at high voltages is now feasible due to new technologies, and it is more efficient as well as easier to step up/down. At large scale, even such seemingly small losses do start to add up and matter.

Decentralization brings an obvious benefit - if power is consumed near generation, you need less infrastructure to distribute it, thereby lowering costs. Once we start adding large numbers of EVs charging at home, our energy consumption will tilt more and more towards the home, making generation and consumption on the spot much more efficient and useful.

Another benefit of decentralization is grid resilience. Removing single points of failure by distributing them means that large scale power outages (while already infrequent) would become less frequent.

replies(3): >>jackde+T1 >>cobook+q5 >>conk+zM
2. jackde+T1[view] [source] 2021-01-22 19:35:48
>>snoshy+(OP)
100% agree about grid modernization and resilience being high priorities, but as I pointed out in another comment, the economies of scale for renewables are really really massive (utility scale solar is about half the unit cost of residential and commercial rooftop solar). Transmitting power long distance also partially solves intermittence problems with renewables by allowing overcapacity in one region to power extra demand in another. A bunch of good points for sure, but if I had to bet, I would guess that the future of our energy system involves far more long distance transmission and large installations.
replies(1): >>snoshy+55
◧◩
3. snoshy+55[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-22 19:53:15
>>jackde+T1
Fair point about the unit costs being drastically lower due to economies of scale. As with any large scale infrastructure, it will certainly be a mix of both local generation and utility scale transmitted power. The real question is where the balance of the two will end up. Either way, distributed generation at scale will be a unique phenomenon that hasn't been seen before, and will certainly result in quite a bit of disruption throughout the industry.
4. cobook+q5[view] [source] 2021-01-22 19:54:26
>>snoshy+(OP)
Decentralization is also in the National Security interest. Makes it much harder for an adversary to take down large swaths of the US Grid.
replies(1): >>snoshy+29
◧◩
5. snoshy+29[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-22 20:12:55
>>cobook+q5
This I'm not so sure about. It will certainly be different, but it's still an open question whether it will be easier to secure from a national security standpoint.

There's the physical security aspect of this, which is as you say, hard to take down when it's decentralized. However, as power generation gets more distributed, we'll naturally start seeing more (if not most) of these pieces of equipment be controlled over networks (private or public), and securing distributed infrastructure from a software standpoint is still a hard problem.

Just look at the state of IoT security today. It's quite bad, and that's not even realistically including nation state attackers in the threat model. I don't expect this to go well with a decentralized grid, at least not for a while initially.

replies(2): >>cobook+ad >>jounke+eE
◧◩◪
6. cobook+ad[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-22 20:36:50
>>snoshy+29
I'm not convinced that it needs to be internet controlled. Hopefully it uses protocols like BLE or Zigbee requiring proximity. That way such an attack would require being physically near the device.
replies(1): >>jholma+4Q2
◧◩◪
7. jounke+eE[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-22 23:34:23
>>snoshy+29
Decentralization means rooftop solar, and decentralized control (aka smart meters) have been in place for quite a while in many places.
8. conk+zM[view] [source] 2021-01-23 00:34:06
>>snoshy+(OP)
How is stepping DC up/down easier than AC?
replies(1): >>jessau+oQ1
◧◩
9. jessau+oQ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-23 14:11:42
>>conk+zM
Perhaps parent meant DC is easier now than DC used to be? We can't use transformers, but power circuitry has improved with better FETs.
◧◩◪◨
10. jholma+4Q2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-23 21:13:41
>>cobook+ad
Zigbee devices can form mesh networks. That means viruses on them can form mesh networks. If, in addition to your Zigbee-only home automation gear, you've got a zigbee-enabled internet-enabled hub of some kind, you can get comand-and-control into the network from anywhere in the world. So much for proximity. I worked briefly in a SCADA-adjacent space a decade ago, and people were delivering PoCs back then.

IoT is a raging tirefire. It's hard to even imagine how bad the security situation is.

[go to top]