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[parent] [thread] 10 comments
1. dang+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-01-15 05:45:12
I point this out a lot [1]. The problem is the statelessness of the internet [2]. No matter how often you repeat something, the population that receives the message has measure zero.

There's more international political battle on HN than you'd expect. There have been a lot of flamewars about Indian politics, pursued mostly by users in India or of Indian descent. And don't get me started on the internecine warfare of the Swedes [3].

It's true that a lot of misunderstandings on HN, often bitter ones, happen because readers assume other users are American when they're not. The site is a lot more international than people assume; only about half in the U.S., and a lot of those users are immigrants or expats.

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

[2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

[3] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

replies(4): >>cmroan+b6 >>segfau+ib >>AYBABT+Rr >>hashkb+V21
2. cmroan+b6[view] [source] 2021-01-15 06:57:24
>>dang+(OP)
Thanks @dang, I recall seeing some of what you mention. One day you might care to write a book, but for now as others have pointed out, thanks for your delicate hand, you're a star amidst the darkness. You see everything :-)
replies(1): >>dang+U9
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3. dang+U9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-15 07:33:41
>>cmroan+b6
That's hilarious, but thanks!
replies(2): >>ethbr0+Tm >>bmcn20+t91
4. segfau+ib[view] [source] 2021-01-15 07:54:22
>>dang+(OP)
Thanks for the warning, dang. I often see Indian political flamewars here and I know what they are, but I didn't realize that online political discussions from Sweden exist on HN, and they're even more toxic than their U.S. counterparts (e.g. immigration, gender, etc). I just enabled "Show Dead" and went to your link and it instantly ruined my day, reminds me of 4chan /pol/ threads. Thanks again for keeping them under control, time to disable "Show Dead" and forgot what I just saw...

> The problem is the statelessness of the internet.

I fully understand your frustration. I always thought forums are much better since Twitter is a worse offender - you have to repeat what you've just said 10 minutes ago after a new person has joined the conversation - but for someone who moderates forums daily, I guess it's basically the same experience.

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5. ethbr0+Tm[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-15 09:44:54
>>dang+U9
Given the content is all ostensibly public, I'd put in a quick second for a blog post (or longer form) on "dang's informal observations from marinating in the raw stream of HN comments."

To state the obvious, I don't think anyone spends as much time on HN as the moderation team, in the sense of reading comments widely. At least... I'd hope none of us dedicate that much time. (Btw, always thanks!)

6. AYBABT+Rr[view] [source] 2021-01-15 10:30:00
>>dang+(OP)
Something I've noticed while traveling and staying abroad for long period: the content on HN tends to have a slightly different vibe depending on which continent/timezone group is awake and reading the news at a given time, especially on slow-news days.

In another comment, you said that HN isn't siloed[1]. I think otherwise, there's definitely a certain vibe of groupthink going on, which changes ever so slightly depending on the time of day, but mostly has strong common undercurrents of what are acceptable lines of thoughts and what are not in the greater HN community. And then within a given timezone, there are thought-cliques that share common counter-positions.

I would say, HN is siloed, it just has a few silos.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25190216

replies(1): >>pietro+9K
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7. pietro+9K[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-15 12:47:24
>>AYBABT+Rr
> which changes ever so slightly depending on the time of day

This seems to be true. I noticed on my comments I get pretty consistent waves of upvotes or downvotes depending on the time of the day. My comments are usually pretty politicized and polarizing, so my guess must be that the US wave likes my content less and the European wave likes it more.

8. hashkb+V21[view] [source] 2021-01-15 14:42:11
>>dang+(OP)
HN is more stateless than the average internet forum. HN could embrace moving the forum forward beyond threads and votes, and maybe you'd have a platform that you could moderate fairly and didn't require so much self censorship; a platform that elevated unpopular but thoughtful ideas. It seems like HN is proud of being low tech, your community management issues are solvable.
replies(1): >>dang+6g3
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9. bmcn20+t91[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-15 15:17:02
>>dang+U9
He might have been joking, but I think most people would be interested in it
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10. dang+6g3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-16 04:15:18
>>hashkb+V21
I'm skeptical. Also, such changes come with high costs and risks so one can't just slosh things around. That's one of the lessons of the OP!
replies(1): >>hashkb+vfm
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11. hashkb+vfm[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-22 16:20:44
>>dang+6g3
(this ended up longer than you probably want to read; thanks for your time and consideration)

I think the only "risk" of moving away from upvote/downvote (or at least publishing some type of suggestions for how they ought to be used) is that you'll start seeing more diverse opinions rise to the top of threads; and folks with majority opinions will have to engage instead of the drive-by-downvote. The positive feedback cycle of compounding diversity should be easy to imagine; and the chilling effect of downvoting as it exists today is a well documented bug in our reality.

As for the costs, even if all you could bring yourself to do is to separate downvote into "disagree" and "this is low-quality content", but scored them both just as you score downvotes today, you'd be providing better feedback to commenters as well as raising the quality of the discussion. Today the downvote (here and in so many other similar communities) is a huge contributor to the groupthink driven division-without-discussion that's poisoning our society.

To lower the cost to essentially zero, just turn off downvoting for a while and see what changes. If you're willing to experiment with cutting off entire topics, why not experiment with the structure of discussion?

I think there is even a strong case that HN's current policies are inconsistent. From the HN guidelines:

> Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.

But isn't that the essential function of the downvote? I'd much rather have someone say, "This isn't interesting to me" than just get the downvotes.

> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

OK ... but why is there nothing saying "consider a thoughtful, constructive critique instead of a downvote; use downvotes only for _________". What actually is the purpose of the downvote? Why is it a feature of this discussion tool? Was it included thoughtfully, or just because HN is a Reddit clone? Ironic that PG launched HN to be a "better" Reddit, but then you have in the guidelines:

> Please don't post comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. It's a semi-noob illusion, as old as the hills.

HN suffers from one critical weakness that Reddit pioneered - the downvote. I'll end the comparison there; HN isn't turning into Reddit; but it has an opportunity to pioneer this type of threaded discussion and really differentiate itself from Reddit; if you're sensitive to the comparison, eliminating or improving upon voting is how you'll free yourself from that complaint.

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