zlacker

[parent] [thread] 65 comments
1. tempes+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-11-29 00:34:16
I must say, I don't understand the disable JS movement. I browse with JS on, and uBlock Origin to block ads. It's rare that I have any javascript-related problems in my web browsing. On the other hand, I definitely use a number of sites that rely on javascript for useful purposes.

If you're worried about tracking, you can block ads and tracking scripts without disabling javascript. If you're worried about viruses, well, all I can say there is that in my experience and understanding, if you keep your browser updated, the odds of getting a virus via browser JS are exceedingly low. Doubly so if you're not frequenting sketchy sites.

I don't know, it seems to me like advice from a time before security was a priority for browser makers, and high-quality ad blockers existed. At this point, I really don't see the value.

replies(12): >>zamale+Q1 >>dx87+P2 >>nop90+a4 >>matheu+D7 >>dreamc+X8 >>1vuio0+ka >>kordle+Mb >>mcoval+Xd >>numpad+6g >>tracto+VC >>deadwi+FF >>Nautil+JN
2. zamale+Q1[view] [source] 2020-11-29 00:56:57
>>tempes+(OP)
> If you're worried about viruses [...]

Not to mention that a host of vulnerabilities were image related a few years back (one of the original rookits exploited a TGA bug).

> uBlock Origin

Honestly, this is the antivirus of the web. I helped my niece set up my old computer for Minecraft today, and she was explaining how her friend had installed viruses (adware, really) 3 times. Every one of those instances was caused by download link confusion for Minecraft mods. Disabling JavaScript isn't going to save you from being tricked into downloading shady software, only an adblocker will.

replies(3): >>sam0x1+H7 >>matheu+S7 >>billyh+Pg
3. dx87+P2[view] [source] 2020-11-29 01:09:04
>>tempes+(OP)
I keep it disabled just so sites load faster. Except for 1 or 2 sites, I don't care about anything except for the main text on a page, so it's a waste of time to let a ton of javascript run and load/format things that I don't care about.
replies(1): >>intras+c4
4. nop90+a4[view] [source] 2020-11-29 01:22:18
>>tempes+(OP)
I wouldn't say javascript serves a useful purpose anymore as it's being used to generate entire UIs. It's more a requirement, and performance is taking the heat.
◧◩
5. intras+c4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 01:23:01
>>dx87+P2
I generally visit web pages with JavaScript disabled and them immediately click "reader view". But there are certainly a lot of sites where content is loaded with script, and for those pages I must enabled JS. Q: Does anyone know of a Safari iOS add-in that allows for whitelisting of specific sites to run JS?
replies(1): >>shadow+W6
◧◩◪
6. shadow+W6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 01:55:08
>>intras+c4
Not sure if this solves your entire problem, but you can disable all content blockers for any sit in Safari for iOS[1].

[1]: https://www.macrumors.com/how-to/disable-content-blockers-sa...

replies(1): >>intras+XN4
7. matheu+D7[view] [source] 2020-11-29 02:02:53
>>tempes+(OP)
> I don't understand the disable JS movement

Javascript is a privacy and security nightmare. It's almost equivalent to downloading and silently executing untrusted code on your machine. I say "almost" because Javascript code is virtualized and sandboxed. Though I have no doubt people have already discovered vulnerabilities that enable code to break out of the sandbox.

replies(2): >>jolux+h8 >>kordle+Kc
◧◩
8. sam0x1+H7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 02:03:24
>>zamale+Q1
In my experience Brave Browser (chrome based) runs circles around uBlock origin FYI
replies(3): >>sicrom+Y7 >>stjohn+Az >>recipr+EZ
◧◩
9. matheu+S7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 02:05:47
>>zamale+Q1
Yeah! After I install uBlock Origin, people seem to stop downloading malware for some reason. Funny how that works...
◧◩◪
10. sicrom+Y7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 02:06:53
>>sam0x1+H7
Can you say more? I’m a happy uBlock user — what am I missing by not using Brave?
replies(2): >>movedx+5b >>dbsmit+kc
◧◩
11. jolux+h8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 02:11:18
>>matheu+D7
The cost-benefit analysis of JavaScript usage comes down on the side of enabling it for most people, because of how much of the web is completely broken without it. Sandbox escapes are rare but extremely valuable, and they absolutely exist: https://www.computerworld.com/article/3186686/google-patches...
12. dreamc+X8[view] [source] 2020-11-29 02:18:18
>>tempes+(OP)
On a great many web sites I have to spend the first 60 seconds on the site clicking on "X" boxes in popups to make them go away. In many cases there are actually several layers of popups obscuring the content, and some are delayed so they only pop up after you start reading the content. No I do not want to subscribe to your mailing list. No I don't want to take your survey. No I do not want to "chat" with your bot-pretending-to-be-a-human. Yes this is my sixth article from you this month but I will not be paying for a subscription, because I have enough of those already. Yes cookies are OK but I want the minimal set. And no I will not disable my adblocker because doing so makes this whole bloody nightmare even worse.

Disabling Javascript makes most of this insulting crap go away, and sometimes it is the only way to read the content.

replies(6): >>pugwor+we >>pkulak+zj >>joel_m+gn >>ghego1+9z >>HeadsU+RL >>derefr+1x1
13. 1vuio0+ka[view] [source] 2020-11-29 02:35:58
>>tempes+(OP)
I must say, honestly, I don't understand the JavaScript (JS) movement. I am not a web developer, perhaps that is the reason.

IME, 9 times out of 10, web developers are using JS for non-necessary reasons. The user configurable settings of popular browsers make it easy to designate the small number of sites that actually require JS and keep JS disabled for all other sites. They anticipate that the user will not have one default JS policy for all websites. In other words, these web browsers do not expect that all users should just leave JS enabled/disabled for every website, they acknowledge there will be situations where it should be disabled.

However as we all know most users probably never change settings. Doubtful it is a coincidence that all these browsers have JS enabled by default.

The number of pages I visit that actually require JS for me to retrieve the content is so small that I can use a client that does not contain a JS interpreter. Warnings and such one finds on web pages informing users that "Javascript is required" are usually false IME. I can still retrieve the content with the use of an HTTP request and no JS.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the use of JS. It is nice to have a built-in interpreter in a web browser for certain uses. For example, it makes web-based commerce much easier. However, I believe the largest use of JS today is to support the internet ad industry. Without having automatic execution of code by the browser without user review, approval or even interaction, I do not believe the internet ad "industry" would exist as we know it.

I believe this not because I think having a JS or other interpreter is technically necessary, but because these companies have become wholly reliant upon it.

That's why disabling JS stopsa remarkable amount of ads and tracking.

◧◩◪◨
14. movedx+5b[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 02:46:48
>>sicrom+Y7
https://brave.com/
replies(1): >>judge2+hc
15. kordle+Mb[view] [source] 2020-11-29 02:59:20
>>tempes+(OP)
The idea that some remote server needs my processing power to display images and text is so ridiculous because it has become normal. These things don't need my processing power, nor do they have a right to it by default.

I browse the web with JS disabled by default. If I encounter a site that has trouble with that, I enable it for that site until I can determine if it is worth leaving it enabled, which usually means at some point I'll be back there again and need it on.

For the most part, it is a superior experience to what I was seeing before with just an ad blocker. The most noticeable thing about it is probably how many images simply don't load because developers lean on JS for loading and scaling them.

◧◩◪◨⬒
16. judge2+hc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 03:07:53
>>movedx+5b
In case the OP wanted to know exactly how Brave's adblock is different from uBlock Origin instead of a link to the marketing page with links to other things like cryptocurrencies:

Brave's browser claims a speedup over AdBlock plus, but was inspired by UBO, so the performance is fairly similar, but is baked into the browser instead of being an extension.

> We therefore rebuilt our ad-blocker taking inspiration from uBlock Origin and Ghostery’s ad-blocker approach.

https://brave.com/improved-ad-blocker-performance/

replies(1): >>square+af
◧◩◪◨
17. dbsmit+kc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 03:09:00
>>sicrom+Y7
Forced client updates
◧◩
18. kordle+Kc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 03:15:39
>>matheu+D7
> Javascript is a privacy and security nightmare.

AFAIK, JavaScript the language has neither privacy nor security issues of "nightmare" level.

> It's almost equivalent to downloading and silently executing untrusted code on your machine.

No it's not. The code is run in a VM, which is run in a browser. So, the code is limited in doing things to the browser, which itself is limited in what it can do to your computer (files and whatnot). So it's not at all like running untrusted code "on your machine".

> I say "almost" because Javascript code is virtualized and sandboxed.

It's virtualized (in the browser) such that all the code will run almost the same on different browsers and chipsets. Again, the browser code is what keeps the computer safe from any code it runs, including CSS code or other VMs it may use, like Java or Flash. Also the OS keeps the computer safe from the browser (or at least it should).

So, no it's not JavaScript that is the boogeyman here.

replies(1): >>jachee+id
◧◩◪
19. jachee+id[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 03:24:14
>>kordle+Kc
My understanding is that JavaScript is the primary mechanism used in browser fingerprinting and cross-site user tracking/"analytics". Isn't that a rather large privacy and (personal, if not specifically "cyber") security risk?
replies(2): >>1vuio0+rl >>XCSme+zQ1
20. mcoval+Xd[view] [source] 2020-11-29 03:34:30
>>tempes+(OP)
Developers have been reimplementing W3C specs in Javascript. Forms don't work, password managers have no idea what's going on, back buttons are hijacked, and sometimes even scrolling is thought to be better handled by a 4MB JavaScript file than by the browser.
replies(1): >>tempes+Mh
◧◩
21. pugwor+we[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 03:44:44
>>dreamc+X8
I personally visit "a great many websites" daily, and rarely have this problem. Maybe it's uBlock doing it's job, or maybe it's the kind of site you go to?
replies(1): >>dreamc+Zf
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
22. square+af[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 03:54:28
>>judge2+hc
It's also written in Rust for performance.
replies(2): >>scalad+2h >>steelb+6j
◧◩◪
23. dreamc+Zf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 04:10:05
>>pugwor+we
Or maybe I need to try uBlock again rather than assuming my Pihole is as good as it gets. Thanks for the suggestion.
replies(3): >>scalad+zg >>rustic+3s >>arbol+vQ
24. numpad+6g[view] [source] 2020-11-29 04:13:00
>>tempes+(OP)
I ain’t need no Turing complete sandbox on my box run random code from Internet while I skim through HyperText
replies(1): >>RRever+NL3
◧◩◪◨
25. scalad+zg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 04:22:15
>>dreamc+Zf
Of course it isn't. Pihole and similar DNS-based blockers do nothing for those kinds of spam which require performing DOM manipulations to be removed. Check uBlock settings after installing it. It has a separate "annoyances" list. I enabled everything in it a few years ago and never had a single problem. It removes all the GDPR banners, "please give us your email" popups, useless "oh I am so original" plates in forum signatures, etc. etc.
replies(3): >>FlashB+Vl >>mchusm+Z71 >>3gg+mg1
◧◩
26. billyh+Pg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 04:29:58
>>zamale+Q1
> one of the original root kits exploited a TGA bug

As a lover of old image formats and the security issues they can cause* this sounds fascinating, but some quick google searches don’t seem to surface what you are referencing. Can you share any more details?

* I once fell into discovering a memory disclosure flaw with Firefox and XBM images

replies(2): >>edgyqu+2l >>zamale+C81
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
27. scalad+2h[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 04:32:45
>>square+af
I use a 6 year old desktop which wasn't that great even when I built it, and a pretty terrible 8 year old laptop, and I don't have any problems with uBlock Origin's performance. I have almost every filter list enabled (except for some regional ones), which results in 153486 network and 173646 cosmetic filters total.
replies(1): >>sicrom+Po
◧◩
28. tempes+Mh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 04:48:01
>>mcoval+Xd
Whatever one thinks of that though, aren't those good reasons not to disable javascript?
replies(1): >>kitsun+Fk
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
29. steelb+6j[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 05:09:02
>>square+af
I don't understand this way of thinking. Rust isn't magically fast. You can use most languages to write both performant and lazy code.

Also just so you know, Brave isn't "written" in Rust alone, it is a big software with a lot of parts, including but not limited to a rendering engine, a JS VM and a WASM engine.

The Rust part at most (unconfirmed) would be the glue that connects them together, and I doubt that's where the bottleneck is for most browsers.

replies(2): >>vortic+Qk >>square+Os2
◧◩
30. pkulak+zj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 05:15:26
>>dreamc+X8
I just hit reader mode on FF. I didn't know modern sites would even load without JS enabled.
replies(1): >>_1gwx+yg1
◧◩◪
31. kitsun+Fk[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 05:34:58
>>tempes+Mh
They're an even better reason to find alternative sites.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
32. vortic+Qk[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 05:37:18
>>steelb+6j
Is that's the new algorithm that made the rust rewrite x69 faster

>The new algorithm with optimised set of rules is 69x faster on average than the current engine.

https://brave.com/improved-ad-blocker-performance/

◧◩◪
33. edgyqu+2l[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 05:40:50
>>billyh+Pg
There was the github ddos that existed (iirc) as an image that made a request when viewed (I think it actually ran a script) and a couple smaller botnets that used similar functionality in 2018.
◧◩◪◨
34. 1vuio0+rl[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 05:48:19
>>jachee+id
Yes.

The "security features" of popular browsers will never protect the user from the tentacles of internet advertising. Companies/organizations that author popular web browsers generally rely on the success of internet advertising in order to continue as going concerns; as such, they are obviously not focused on internet advertising, and collection of user data, as a "security threat".

◧◩◪◨⬒
35. FlashB+Vl[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 05:57:28
>>scalad+zg
I wasn't aware of this option in settings. Thanks.
replies(1): >>livre+qL
◧◩
36. joel_m+gn[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 06:21:58
>>dreamc+X8
>In many cases there are actually several layers of popups obscuring the content, and some are delayed so they only pop up after you start reading the content.

I swear I've had ones that popup as I move the mouse to close the tab.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
37. sicrom+Po[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 06:50:48
>>scalad+2h
Same here. My take away from these replies is that I'm not missing anything by sticking with uBlock.
replies(1): >>sam0x1+Sq
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
38. sam0x1+Sq[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 07:22:31
>>sicrom+Po
With uBlock origin you're at the whim of the changes Google pushes through to chrome/chromium to nerf it.
replies(1): >>scalad+qs
◧◩◪◨
39. rustic+3s[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 07:39:33
>>dreamc+Zf
I would suggest ublock origin instead of ublock.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦
40. scalad+qs[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 07:45:46
>>sam0x1+Sq
What are you talking about? uBlock Origin is not tied to Chromium, and is not controlled by Google (unlike Brave which is just a fork of Chromium).

Jesus, why does everyone these days automatically assumes that everyone else is using Chrome or Chromium? It's almost as crazy as calling Windows a "PC".

replies(1): >>sam0x1+rZ7
◧◩
41. ghego1+9z[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 09:37:55
>>dreamc+X8
This is practically me
◧◩◪
42. stjohn+Az[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 09:45:51
>>sam0x1+H7
No it doesn't. I use Firefox with ubo and Brave (without extensions) for work and I notice no "running circles around" by either browser. While I'm sure brave's native blocking is faster, in human perception the time difference is essentially nil.
43. tracto+VC[view] [source] 2020-11-29 10:40:21
>>tempes+(OP)
really don't you really understand?

this is not about how "you" do things, It is more about how it should be done! js is almost never provides want I want when I browse, I expect to get some information! I am not on the circus looking for adventures!

people who love to use javascript to prove that they have some kind of taste about how ux etc. I think these people should use some other platform for people who are insterested in show bussniss. think of this as public transportation is designed based on who the driver is that day! is this sound ok to you? do you understand this one?

web is just connection to other people, not a tool for others to bully you just bein' smart about "the code" they wrote is brilliant!

44. deadwi+FF[view] [source] 2020-11-29 11:16:36
>>tempes+(OP)
That's not the point of this. This is not about disabling JS as a user of websites.

Heydon is a developer, and an influencer of developers. He's saying: web development is now absolutely obsessed with JavaScript, and it in no way has to be. The basics, HTML, CSS. That's what's important.

replies(1): >>tempes+wQ1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
45. livre+qL[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 12:38:11
>>FlashB+Vl
If the default annoyances lists aren't enough for you you can also add this one[1]

[1] https://github.com/yourduskquibbles/webannoyances

◧◩
46. HeadsU+RL[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 12:45:25
>>dreamc+X8
Personally I usr stock ublock origin and sponsorblock. Thesr 2 together work reasonably well.
47. Nautil+JN[view] [source] 2020-11-29 13:17:04
>>tempes+(OP)
Seeing as how this site is in part for job opportunity self-promotion, it seems like a decent way to weed out non-technical employers.
◧◩◪◨
48. arbol+vQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 14:01:30
>>dreamc+Zf
Pihole blocks server requests but ublock can do a whole lot more to the page by blocking specific html, css, and scripts. Ublock will prevent YouTube ads, for example, whereas pihole cannot as they come from the same server as the content.
◧◩◪
49. recipr+EZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 15:36:31
>>sam0x1+H7
"In my experience", followed by "for your information" - what an empty comment. You've not breathed any substance into your opinion with this post.
◧◩◪◨⬒
50. mchusm+Z71[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 16:44:31
>>scalad+zg
I've never been bothered by ads/want to support sites I visit. so never considered using javascript blockers.

But I must say I hate GDPR banners and this could convert me.

◧◩◪
51. zamale+C81[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 16:50:13
>>billyh+Pg
Wish I could edit that, I meant jailbreak - which did give root access, technically allowing a host of nefarious use cases.
◧◩◪◨⬒
52. 3gg+mg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 18:01:43
>>scalad+zg
Thanks for the tip. I wasn't aware that uBlock had all those extra options.
◧◩◪
53. _1gwx+yg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 18:03:15
>>pkulak+zj
But you do get the irony, right? It's like a browser is not for reading by default anymore, like stepping into a car and putting it in "car mode".
replies(1): >>pkulak+Cr3
◧◩
54. derefr+1x1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 20:26:13
>>dreamc+X8
That may have been true whenever you last evaluated your choice, but I find that today, on-load modals are mostly burned into the HTML. With Javascript disabled, rather than not being there, they're instead always there, impossible to get rid of.
replies(1): >>accoun+qP5
◧◩
55. tempes+wQ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 23:11:09
>>deadwi+FF
That's a fair take. I was mostly reacting to the other top level comments I saw here.
◧◩◪◨
56. XCSme+zQ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-29 23:11:15
>>jachee+id
Actually, the main and most used mechanism of cross-site user tracking and "fingerprinting" are cookies, which do not require any JS to work.
replies(1): >>jachee+1c5
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
57. square+Os2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-30 07:00:29
>>steelb+6j
I meant Brave's adblocker was written in Rust, as the context was about how Brave's adblocker differs from others.
◧◩◪◨
58. pkulak+Cr3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-30 16:01:37
>>_1gwx+yg1
Oh yeah. Browsers are application runtimes. They have been for 20 years now.
◧◩
59. RRever+NL3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-30 17:32:12
>>numpad+6g
CSS is Turing complete.
◧◩◪◨
60. intras+XN4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-30 23:22:09
>>shadow+W6
So what I should then be looking for is a good content blocker - one that supports disabling JavaScript. Any recommendations?
replies(1): >>shadow+oR4
◧◩◪◨⬒
61. shadow+oR4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-11-30 23:48:21
>>intras+XN4
No clue on that one, sorry. I’ve been using Purify[1] for ages, but have no clue if it blocks JS - I suspect it blocks only some JS, because my experience of the web isn’t trash while using it, but I do have to disable it sometimes to use the heavily animated navigation systems that some sites implement.

[1]: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/purify-block-ads-and-tracking/...

◧◩◪◨⬒
62. jachee+1c5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-12-01 03:06:33
>>XCSme+zQ1
How does cross-site user tracking do its thing?
replies(1): >>XCSme+gH5
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
63. XCSme+gH5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-12-01 09:31:04
>>jachee+1c5
Set a cookie using HTTP headers.

Use a tracking pixel (eg. image) to make further requests and cookie will be included in the request.

◧◩◪
64. accoun+qP5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-12-01 11:18:51
>>derefr+1x1
> With Javascript disabled, rather than not being there, they're instead always there, impossible to get rid of.

Inspect element -> remove

Browsers should really add "remove element" directly to the context menu.

replies(1): >>dreamc+dLa
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦▧
65. sam0x1+rZ7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-12-02 02:24:37
>>scalad+qs
Google controls the frontend APIs uBlock origin is allowed to use, and they have pushed changes numerous times in the past (covered on HN) to intentionally nerf uBlock origin because it hurts their bottom line.
◧◩◪◨
66. dreamc+dLa[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-12-02 23:29:31
>>accoun+qP5
Agreed. I also would like a browser that would let me automatically disable any element with a z-index greater than 1.
[go to top]