zlacker

Social Cooling (2017)

submitted by rapnie+(OP) on 2020-09-29 13:12:50 | 2692 points 919 comments
[view article] [source] [go to bottom]

NOTE: showing posts with links only show all posts
◧◩
2. paulgb+ee[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 14:29:00
>>pcdood+zc
In a similar vein, by the same author: https://www.mathwashing.com/

(It's linked at the bottom of this one, but I'm sure a lot of people don't get that far)

◧◩◪◨
40. pmarre+yk[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 15:01:05
>>whatsh+yi
In short, yes, there's quite a bit of evidence of this.

https://www.factcheck.org/2019/03/the-facts-on-white-nationa...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/18/white-national...

◧◩◪
47. pmarre+Vl[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 15:08:10
>>luckyl+ug
Assange being an enemy of the state is sufficient proof for me that Trump is not as dangerous as the left says he is.

I mean, Assange basically had 2 nukes, one with Clinton's name on it and one with Trump's name on it and released only the Clinton one because he had personal beef with her. This likely resulted in Trump's election.

Until that election, I was a Wikileaks fan. Now, I think Assange can go f* himself in prison for the rest of his life. What he did is almost unforgivable.

https://theintercept.com/2017/11/15/wikileaks-julian-assange...

71. DavidV+Ho[view] [source] 2020-09-29 15:22:03
>>rapnie+(OP)
(2017)

Previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14585882

edit:

The author also replied to some comments in that thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=socialcooling

77. kelvin+2q[view] [source] 2020-09-29 15:28:33
>>rapnie+(OP)
This is an episode of Black Mirror, coming to our reality sooner than thought.

Netflix Trailer https://youtu.be/R32qWdOWrTo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror)

◧◩◪
91. Nextgr+Hr[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 15:34:28
>>shadow+Ch
I remember reading a story about a Black man attending KKK rallies to understand their argument and successfully convince some of them to leave the group. I think it was Daryl Davis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis

Nowadays this would be very difficult because the mere fact of being around "bad" people ("bad" depends on the context and might be something relatively innocent) would also brand you as "bad" regardless of any good intentions you might have.

What ends up happening is that "bad" people are stuck in their own echo-chamber surrounded by like-minded people and anyone outside of the group wouldn't dare to engage with them (and provide counter-arguments) because of consequences for their own career & social circle (as their own friends would distance themselves from him for the same reasons).

◧◩◪
99. maze-l+5t[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 15:41:43
>>tootie+Di
Yes but that's just the thing: OP wants to create their "real" self, just not the authentic self. It becomes real, by association with the name of the person, yet it stays a simulated expression, a simulacrum[0].

Consider that the loan- or job-"machines" are collecting intelligence from social networks to evaluate the person -- in addition to loan history and previous job performance. Now if you can present "yourself" to this machines in a conformal way, you don't need to fear negative repercussions on shitposts you did. While you can still be authentic in private or under pseudonyms.

Of course, you will still get categorized by the bank transactions you make in your real name. Same goes for your performance reviews on previous jobs. It is just a matter of tricking these other forms of automated social control into a higher rating bound to your name.

-----

I find it fascinating that philosophers like Baudrillard and Deleuze were able to think and warn about these issues more than 40 years ago when none of this was even remotely on the horizon:

See also Deleuzes "Societies of Control":

https://cidadeinseguranca.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/deleuz...

and:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337844512_Societies...

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacrum

◧◩◪◨⬒
102. JacobD+pt[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 15:42:51
>>hombre+eq
What happens if you're a victim of Vomit Fraud?

https://thepointsguy.com/news/uber-vomit-fraud-scam/

And what if Uber is your government-provided method of transportation for health care?

https://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/uber-healths-non-...

◧◩
107. ozorOz+St[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 15:44:40
>>ancore+vr
I think they are referring to the idea of "apparatus" from Michel Foucault.

From wikipedia: "I shall call an apparatus literally anything that has in some way the capacity to capture, orient, determine, intercept, model, control, or secure the gestures, behaviors, opinions, or discourses of living beings."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispositif

◧◩◪
118. Electr+Yu[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 15:49:58
>>pyr0hu+9s
yes, you can deactivate your facebook account and still use messenger, see https://www.facebook.com/help/messenger-app/1526848634305688
◧◩
126. wmered+rv[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 15:52:01
>>josefr+qg
This reminds me of Gattaca (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gattaca) where people with good genes rent out their DNA to those who have bad genes so they can get better jobs, insurance, etc...
◧◩◪◨⬒
137. pmarre+yw[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 15:57:02
>>fwklei+ou
Wikileaks got its dirt from Russian hackers. They did not do the hacks themselves.

The same Russian hackers who actually hacked both the DNC and RNC, but notably (and impactfully) did not release the RNC data.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/12/10/report-russi...

◧◩
146. clairi+3y[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 16:03:57
>>tboyd4+dm
note that this is a marketing site (as noted in my other comment[0]), so discount appropriately.

social pressure predates humans. it's pervasive and our teenage years (especially) are spent coping with/negotiating that. the difference with facebook is that it's potentially unbounded in reach and visibility (in nearly all cases it's not, but every once in a while, something blows completely out of its social circle). as with many modern phenomena, the risk-aversion this induces is out of proportion with the actual risks because of that potential (but not actual) reach and visibility, amplified by memetic social networks that trade in novel (whether true or false) information. in short, the worry over the effects of offense are greater than the potential effects themselves.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24629098

◧◩◪
151. motoha+Ey[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 16:06:33
>>tdalto+Gt
I'd say that american software developers affording private security as a result of a company they founded is a pretty recent phenomenon. I'm sure there is an n<10 of early precedents, but the underlying point is that the response to these oppressive systems is likely to be uncivil.

Indeed the Varian rule was coined by the FT journalist McAfee as you mentioned (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varian_Rule), though as a counter example, presidents don't really count. Politicians can be wealthy but, like criminals, they're never rich.

◧◩◪◨
153. Reedx+Oy[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 16:07:08
>>addict+wv
"However, hard evidence points to a different reality. This year, the Heterodox Academy conducted an internal member survey of 445 academics. “Imagine expressing your views about a controversial issue while at work, at a time when faculty, staff, and/or other colleagues were present. To what extent would you worry about the following consequences?” To the hypothetical “My reputation would be tarnished,” 32.68 percent answered “very concerned” and 27.27 percent answered “extremely concerned.” To the hypothetical “My career would be hurt,” 24.75 percent answered “very concerned” and 28.68 percent answered “extremely concerned.”

In other words, more than half the respondents consider expressing views beyond a certain consensus in an academic setting quite dangerous to their career trajectory."

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/09/academics-...

◧◩◪◨
174. Reedx+LA[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 16:15:35
>>lilact+8y
The bigger problem is left-leaning people getting harassed and immediately flagged as right/alt-right/-ist (i.e., "not one of us") when merely disagreeing with or challenging dogma. See Joe Rogan, JK Rowling, Sam Harris, Bret Weinstein, Richard Dawkins, Steven Pinker for some high profile examples.

Don't toe the line and echo approved orthodoxy? You're the enemy! This is extreme tribal behavior.

As a result, there is a chilling effect and a lot liberals no longer feel welcome on the left[1][2]. Certainly don't feel welcome to speak or think openly. This is incredibly regressive, damaging to liberalism and enlightenment values. Seriously, not being able to challenge your own side and engage in dialectic will send us back to the dark ages.

1. https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-left-is-now-the-right

2. https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-left-is-now-the-right/comm...

◧◩
192. geebee+pC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 16:22:39
>>tboyd4+dm
I've quit (as in, delete, not suspend) my Facebook account twice. Deleted it, signed up again years later, deleted it again. I hope it's for good.

The reason really was politics. I've never learned anything new from these posts, they tend to just be the more bombastic restatements of things that everyone already knows about. I think they're a form of social signaling or posturing (people want to establish themselves as the most for or against... whatever their in-group is for or agains).

There's a funny onion article I've always enjoyed, "I don't like the person you become when you're on the Jumbotron".

https://sports.theonion.com/i-dont-like-the-person-you-becom...

There are people I am friends with, but I wouldn't want to be around when they're drunk. I feel the same way about some people on social media. The problem is, they tend to be the ones who dominate the platform. And it's new, so we're not really aware of the dangers - but I actually do think it may have a lot in common with alcohol addiction.

212. amitha+SD[view] [source] 2020-09-29 16:29:08
>>rapnie+(OP)
How trite... Linking about social cooling to a site that refuses to let you purge your data.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23622865

They claim you can ask. Then dang backpedals.

217. chadwi+gE[view] [source] 2020-09-29 16:30:45
>>rapnie+(OP)
100% agreed with this and trying a vastly different approach. Still early, but the idea is to merge people and topics while doing this through a question engine to invite everyone into the conversation... instead of just the loud & ego driven voices. Looking for beta testers right now, starting with NBA, NFL, Fantasy Football, & Tech for the early topic categories. If you're interested, let me know: https://trypersona.com
◧◩◪
223. captai+OE[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 16:33:10
>>istori+Sg
It's a slower slide, but over time this information is centralised into a fewer and fewer large data brokers, what the scores means will become standardised across industries meaning eventually there will be no escape by going to competitors. This enables companies to start charging based on automatically generated risk profiles, some of which will end up being generated based on political preference (or proxies for it) Eventually this means that people with bad scores will be unable to afford certain things in the same way that they have trouble accessing credit. Credit scores are just the beginning.

For instance, imagine you are an airline. You have an issue to do with deportation critics disrupting flights when people are being forcibly deported on them. This happens fairly infrequently but costs you quite a lot of money every time this happens. So, 'logically', you decide to determine who is most likely to disrupt a flight and so through discriminatory thinking somebody decides that those with left-wing political leanings are more likely to disrupt a flight. They purchase this information on political leanings for each of their passengers and pass this cost onto those who fit the profile, entirely on the basis of their political beliefs.

And if they don't do this directly, they will do it by proxy in the same way that the insurance industry has been using proxies for race. https://www.forbes.com/sites/advisor/2020/07/23/insurance-re...

It's a sort of insurance-ification of all pricing and permission which this kind of technology is increasingly enabling.

231. PaulHo+UF[view] [source] 2020-09-29 16:39:03
>>rapnie+(OP)
Baudrillard uses the word "cooling" for this phenomenon circa 1980 and I'd expect it to be known throughout the fandom of French theory. See also "Cooling out the Mark" by Goffman and numerous thinkers that he inspired:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooling_out

232. andrew+XF[view] [source] 2020-09-29 16:39:29
>>rapnie+(OP)
> When algorithms judge everything we do, we need to protect the right to make mistakes.

This is better expressed as saying when your behavior is reduced to metrics, you distort your behavior to match those metrics. An extension of Goodhart's law [1] to social behavior, as we become more capable of deriving metrics to assess social behavior.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law -- "Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes" or "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure"

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
238. slg+DG[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 16:42:48
>>colinm+CE
This was said in a glib manner, which may be the reason for the downvotes, but it is completely true. This is how the Heterodox Academy defines itself:

>Heterodox Academy is a group of 4,100+ educators, administrators, & graduate students who believe diverse viewpoints & open inquiry are critical to research & learning. [1]

Does anyone think that a person who joins a group focusing on promoting "diverse viewpoints" is going to have a representative view of sharing controversial opinions? This is a wildly biased population of people to be answering this question.

[1] - https://heterodoxacademy.org/

◧◩◪◨
241. bredre+bH[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 16:45:25
>>Burnin+7t
In the way it might be casted upon supporters of the President, the distinction between white supremacy and white power is largely semantics.

As far as I understand it, "white supremacy" for those that desire it is the idealized end result of "white power." Much of the rhetoric from President Trump is to rally support for white power. [1]

Given the most common disagreement in the US is between those who advocate for or oppose President Trump, it makes sense that his followers would be deemed "white supremacists"

I believe the broad awakening among many white people in the US currently is the ambient benefits of invisible white power.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6iSgqFahoM

◧◩◪◨⬒
277. Goblin+KL[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 17:09:48
>>Reedx+LA
Thinkers should instead crush tribalism, like this: http://blog.cr.yp.to/20160607-dueprocess.html
◧◩◪◨
283. jjice+9M[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 17:12:46
>>Nextgr+Hr
Daryl Davis is a really interesting guy. His episode on the JRE is really good and his stories keep you engaged. Even if you don't like Joe Rogan, you should still be able to enjoy his episode because Davis does the majority of the talking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGTQ0Wj6yIg

◧◩◪◨
295. Aunche+uN[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 17:19:02
>>lilact+8y
A missionary may also engage with people with different experiences than their own, but they're only doing so to cement their own world view. When they come across someone they disagree with, they'll just label them as evil without thinking about it.

To be clear, I don't think that it's a right vs left thing. I think that social media incentivizes people to behave poorly. Ben Shapiro had an enlightening discussion with a founder of Vox about the nature of polarization [1], but that's not why he's famous or how he makes money. His audience wants to see him bash unprepared liberals, so that's what he's going to do. Even if he doesn't, some other pundit will simply take his place.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMOUiWCjkn4

◧◩◪
344. sneak+3V[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 17:54:57
>>ccktlm+HN
Recently my close friend who still uses FB tried to send someone a link to a public tweet made by the president’s daughter.

FB messenger censored the private message and refused to send it, claiming it was against “community standards”.

These sorts of logged-forever, censored platforms are absolutely chilling speech, person-to-person, even in DMs, and you wouldn’t even know when it happens to messages sent to you.

https://twitter.com/atomly/status/1309632274908946434

> that's my only way to keep in touch with them

That means that you can’t communicate with them, even in DM, in a way that’s not logged for and filtered by a remote party whose interests are not your own. It’s only a matter of time until this is abused by the state.

https://sneak.berlin/20200421/normalcy-bias/

◧◩
348. social+jV[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 17:56:06
>>josefr+qg
Creator of socialcooling.com here. You may enjoy this other website I created:

https://www.cloakingcompany.com

It's a fictitious company that helps you do exactly this. And while it's fiction, the tool actually does work.

◧◩◪◨
349. philwe+nV[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 17:56:43
>>lilact+8y
Reminds me of “I can tolerate anything except the outgroup”: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin...
388. dfisch+OZ[view] [source] 2020-09-29 18:20:41
>>rapnie+(OP)
> It performed data mining and data analysis on its audience. Based on results, communications would then be specifically targeted to key audience groups to modify behaviour in accordance with the goal of SCL's client. The company described itself as a "global election management agency".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCL_Group

Wow.

◧◩
395. Sidebu+A01[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 18:26:02
>>tboyd4+dm
> I can't actually say ANYTHING interesting on this platform without offending someone. There's a lot of variety in my crowd.

This is called "context collapse"

https://www.rewire.org/context-collapse-online/

https://fanlore.org/wiki/Context_Collapse

You might know what to say and how to say it in each context, but this becomes impossible when the contexts are all collapsed into one.

◧◩◪◨⬒
428. js2+u61[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 19:00:38
>>mc32+UC
> remember the time Bernie _didn't_ want immigrants to take jobs from locals?

I'm plucking this bit out because I don't think that's a good summary of his position. He still doesn't "want immigrants to take jobs from locals." He's concerned about corporations abusing immigrant labor to depress American wages. He's long voted for bills to protect immigrants, even while being wary of increasing low-skill immigration. He's trying to find a middle ground between labor and immigration, and that isn't easy.

For an in-depth look:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/2/25/21143931/b...

◧◩◪
458. tboyd4+F91[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 19:19:16
>>bart_s+441
That's fair. I read the "Social Cooling" site (as an aside, what would you call sites like this? E-pamphlets seems like a good term to use.) and it immediately made me think of this essay I read years ago:

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/institute-for-precar...

I think this "social cooling" is related to this generalized feeling of "precarity," the feeling that your place in society can be suspended or deleted in an instant. Whether the agent of this deletion is a state actor (China), a corporation acting on behalf of a state or advertiser (YouTube/Facebook/Twitter), or just ordinary people not acting on any agenda but just carrying forward the anxiety they experience internally. I don't find the latter particularly scarier than the first two since it doesn't carry as much of a threat with it. I certainly didn't experience it as such; but just a minor annoyance and general dissatisfaction with Facebook as a product.

I find it ironic that so many took my top-level comment to mean something was wrong with my social universe; as if, instead of the obvious solution of eschewing Facebook, my solution should be to separate from the people in my life and find better people who I could be on Facebook with. The assumption that it's healthy or even possible to "cancel" people out of your life for not passing some arbitrary standard of behavior is ludicrous to me (and, I would think, to any sane person with family ties, work relationships, etc.). Other people are messy, unpredictable and sometimes awful, but we do need them, and they need us. I think they have internalized this experience of precarity and turned it into a weapon they can wield against others, like an abused person becoming an abuser.

511. tyler3+tg1[view] [source] 2020-09-29 19:58:11
>>rapnie+(OP)
Also a similar website to raise privacy awareness https://theytrackyou.com
◧◩◪◨
530. ZainRi+gj1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 20:13:55
>>stormb+x91
Farnam Street has a great blog post supporting what you just said:

That most people only express things to people that they thing would be accepting of what they said. Even if they might not agree with it, they'll at least accept that it's okay to hold those opinions.

Once you cross the line into "Expressing this opinion will cause negative social consequences to me" then people start self-censoring.

https://fs.blog/2020/09/spiral-of-silence/

◧◩◪
551. fraktl+8m1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 20:30:42
>>lightg+fE
As the author mentioned, it ended up on HN. Message received. I can scroll to the bottom of the article and feed the trackers bad data. Your argument is invalid because you can't make a foolproof algorithm that'll tell you correctly how the user used the site and if the page was finished reading if the user can simply feed you bogus data.

There's another (also brilliant site) linked at the bottom of the original article: https://www.mathwashing.com/

And here's the funny part - you assumed the author won't know, and that's precisely what he's talking about at mathwashing.com - these "algorithms" that are as faulty as people who come up with them.

I doubt you actually read the whole thing with full attention. The message got through to the people it was supposed to get through. I applaud the effort to go without all the tracking nonsense. And whenever I see tracking crap like medium.com uses, I feed it bad data on purpose. It's better to stand true to your message and create a cookieless / trackless site whose purpose is to convey the message rather than use this shitty argument about authors knowing whether they are reaching out to their audience. Precisely because of that thinking we've broken internet where in order to read 512 bytes of text I've to block 50 megabytes of tracking bloatware.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
575. maland+jq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 20:53:18
>>leetcr+fX
False positive and false negative rates also have a relation to the injustice of a false positive. Having to provide ID and get frisked sucks but being falsely accused of a crime and having your entirely life destroyed even if rare is a massive injustice. This is the entire premise of Blackstone's Ratio

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio

For what it's worth I'm libertarian and lean towards having false positives for any of those three scenarios.

◧◩◪◨⬒
589. rayine+Ys1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 21:08:58
>>runarb+B41
> Disenfranchising issues (such as gay rights, police brutality, immigration, right to abortion, etc.) is not only theoretical to some people, but a real threat to their lives and well being. A person playing the devils advocate arguing for limits on immigration to an immigrant is not only annoying but actively threatening to an immigrant at risk of being deported.

There is a limit at which this is true, but most discussion of these issues doesn’t encroach into that territory. As an immigrant from a Muslim country I don’t feel “threats to my safety” when Trump talks about Islamic fundamentalism or extra scrutiny over immigration from certain countries. (It would be pretty odd to declare those topics off-limits, seeing as how the Muslim country I’m from has taken aggressive measures to fight the same exact fundamentalist forces.) I might feel differently if we were talking about putting Muslims in internment camps. But nobody is doing that, even though the left is acting like they are.

Does the US have “too many immigrants?” Until 2007, a plurality of Hispanic Americans (many of whom are immigrants) said “yes.” https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/19/latinos-hav.... Even today, 1 in 4 do. Only 14% say we have “too few immigrants” (which is the view de facto embraced by our current policies, which will lead to increased numbers of immigrants.) Given those views, it’s bizarre to treat discussion of immigration issues as off-limits.

You see this on issue after issue: leftists declare huge swaths of issues as off limits for discussion even to the point of excluding discussion of positions held by large swaths of the groups at issue. For example, 37% of women want to restrict Roe further or overrule it completely, compared to 38% who want to loosen its restrictions either somewhat or significantly. Another 16% want to maintain the status quo. http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/NPR_.... Supermajorities of women, moreover, support measures like waiting periods.

Or, consider “police brutality.” An editor at the NYT was fired for running a op-ed by Tom Cotton advocating a law-and-order response to violence following the death of George Floyd. Recent polling shows that a majority of Hispanic people, who are disproportionately the target of aggressive policing, think “the breakdown of law and order” is a “bigger problem” than “systemic racism.” Large majorities of Black and Hispanic people want to either maintain existing levels of policing, or further increase them.

In practice, it’s your approach that’s “disenfranchising.” That rule makes the majority uncomfortable with expressing anything but the most left-leaning views with respect to a minority group. For example, Ilhan Omar and Linda Saraour say expectations of assimilation are “racist.” This is not even a mainstream opinion among American Muslims, who are one of the most assimilated groups in the country. (To the point that a majority voted for George W. Bush in 2000.) But a big fraction of well-meaning non-Muslims don’t want to be called racist. So they feel comfortable amplifying anti-assimilationist views, but not pro-assimilationist ones. Since non-Muslims are a huge majority of people, that dramatically distorts and biases the debate around Muslim assimilation in a manner that doesn’t reflect the views of Muslims themselves.

That phenomenon has had a real impact on the debate over abortion. A quarter of Democratic women want to further restrict Roe or overrule it. That viewpoint is completely unrepresented among Democratic men.

◧◩
612. r2b2+Ox1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 21:35:49
>>zcople+yu1
I started building Owl Mail [1] about 8 weeks ago to make it easy to create incognito address for your online accounts. It's become an essential part of my privacy toolbox.

[1] https://owlmail.io

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
614. leetcr+7y1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 21:37:40
>>didibu+421
> This is a recurring theme that I despise. People need to start to talk about the government in a democracy as "we". You are the government, the state is a collective you are part off and have power over. You are in fact dependent on others, that is the point of a society.

I take your point, but for an individual this is only true in a very abstract sense. The People may govern Themselves, but I do not govern myself in any meaningful way.

BTW, this idea came up recently on a different article and got some good discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24528467

617. dang+4z1[view] [source] 2020-09-29 21:43:33
>>rapnie+(OP)
If curious see also the previous big thread (2017): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14585882
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
622. rayine+wz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 21:46:36
>>lilact+Ju1
I think folks on the left are well-meaning, but I’m not sure if they’re “headed in the right direction.” I’ve been rattled after this happened at my law school alma mater recently: https://www.thecollegefix.com/northwestern-law-faculty-refus...

The ivory tower leftists are now pushing a narrative of pervasive “white supremacy,” pitting whites versus non-whites. And again, the ivory tower folks are being tone deaf. The NYT recently ran an article where self-described “liberal pollsters” asked about the views of Latino people. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/18/opinion/biden-latino-vote...

> Progressives commonly categorize Latinos as people of color, no doubt partly because progressive Latinos see the group that way and encourage others to do so as well. Certainly, we both once took that perspective for granted. Yet in our survey, only one in four Hispanics saw the group as people of color.

> In contrast, the majority rejected this designation. They preferred to see Hispanics as a group integrating into the American mainstream, one not overly bound by racial constraints but instead able to get ahead through hard work.

What the article describes as the views of the overwhelming majority of Hispanics reflects my own views as an immigrant. By contrast, the approach taken by these ivory tower folks is in my opinion unworkable and threatens to blow up something that works about America: our ability to assimilate and lift up immigrant groups. If you look at the data, all immigrant groups are on a path to reaching economic parity with white people. Asians are already there, and Latinos achieve parity within a few generations: https://academic.oup.com/qje/article/135/3/1567/5741707

Ivory tower leftists are leading these chants, amplifying people like Linda Sarsour who call assimilation “racist,” etc. And I think that ends in disaster. Nowadays, I have to keep an eye out to make sure my half-white daughter isn’t being exposed to this stuff. And frankly, I’m a pretty liberal person so this is distressing. I don’t like the direction Trump has gone by alienating immigrants. But there is a good chance that Nikki Hailey is the future of the GOP. Meanwhile, who comes after Biden? Elizabeth Warren, who talks about all of us non-white people as a progressive bloc, constantly assailed by white people? AOC? Ilhan Omar?

◧◩◪
638. nobody+gB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 21:57:30
>>vasco+RI
>At its core this seems like a moderation issue, if someone writes bots that just post low quality nonsense, ban them, but if bots are just wrong or not super eloquent, I can point you to reddit and twitter right now and you can see a lot of those low quality nonsense, all posted by actual humans. In fact you can go outside and speak to real people and most of it is nonsense (me included).

A relevant, if flip solution to the 'bot' issue[0].

[0]https://xkcd.com/810/

◧◩◪◨
639. sjy+lB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 21:58:25
>>zwaps+Zt
What Economics 101 or 102 principles are you referring to? I Googled your comment and found this 2019 research paper [1] that seems to support it, but I would have thought the Economics 101 take is more aligned with what companies tell us – more information about consumer desires allows firms to sell us products that we like more at lower cost, and competition means that the savings eventually get passed onto us rather than captured in permanently higher profits.

[1] https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/reports/reduced-d...

◧◩
662. Sargos+zF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 22:27:14
>>woeiru+Uq
> IMO, there's a multibillion dollar company waiting to be founded to provide authenticity verification services for humans online.

Any kind of widely used identity/authentication system would need to be a protocol and not a product of a for-profit corporation. Businesses take on great risks if they use another corporation's products as part of their core operations as that product owner can change the terms of service at any time and pull the rug out from under them. A protocol is necessarily neutral so everyone can use it without risk in the same way they use HTTP.

For identity protocols I think BrightID (https://www.brightid.org/) is becoming more established and works pretty well.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
678. munifi+bJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 22:51:37
>>lightg+Pk1
> Or you are biased to see it everywhere.

Why would I be?

> but the burden of proof on those who make statements about white supremacists

In a nation where it was legal to own black people for most of its existence and less than 40 years since the last lynching, you think the burden of proof is on me to show that white supremacy is a problem?

But, sure, here you go then:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:White_supremacy_in_th...

◧◩◪◨⬒
683. justat+1K1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 23:00:01
>>istjoh+GY
https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/julian-assanges-treatme...
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
707. rayine+LO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-29 23:40:33
>>runarb+0N1
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2018/04/25/the-changing-prof...

> While it’s well-established that married parents are typically better off financially than unmarried parents, there are also differences in financial well-being among unmarried parents. For example, a much larger share of solo parents are living in poverty compared with cohabiting parents (27% vs. 16%).3

724. bothra+4W1[view] [source] 2020-09-30 01:02:22
>>rapnie+(OP)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon
738. fogett+e22[view] [source] 2020-09-30 02:36:15
>>rapnie+(OP)
I am surprised that noone mentions the Solid project in the context of discussing privacy

https://solidproject.org/

◧◩
763. grzm+Ra2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-30 04:34:38
>>auggie+D22
> "We're working on performance improvements that will hopefully allow us to go back to HN's original style of one big page per thread (not infinite scroll, don't worry). In the meantime please look for those 'More' links when the total number of comments is over 250 or so."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23851745

◧◩◪◨
773. 082349+0f2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-30 05:36:24
>>mturmo+cX
Have you noticed the topics for which there's remarkable conformity between US and UK media compared with other western media? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23858477

As to reporting unemployment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24364947

◧◩
779. 082349+qg2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-30 06:00:02
>>ChrisM+SA
Before beats: bohemians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemianism

◧◩
780. 082349+Bg2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-30 06:02:02
>>cblcon+d71
There's a contemporary russian illustrator who specialises in Ostalgia, as if the soviets had had pinups and Norman Rockwell.

Young Pioneer examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24440206

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
781. rayine+Wg2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-30 06:06:42
>>runarb+Q82
A premise of your strawman seems to be that women have a different opinion on abortion than men, which isn’t true. Unlike many other political opinions, there is very little difference between men and women on abortion questions: https://www.vox.com/2019/5/20/18629644/abortion-gender-gap-p.... Republican women are significantly more likely than Republican men to identify as pro-life: https://www.npr.org/2019/06/07/730183531/poll-majority-want-.... Your strawman also invokes gratuitous insults, which aren’t necessary to actually debate the issue.

Apart from that, my hypothetical is one that happens all the time. Article after article denounces policies like waiting periods, which the majority of women support and which exist in other developed countries, as misogynistic: https://www.vice.com/en/article/qkg753/what-its-like-to-endu....

Stepping back, a problem with your examples is the individualistic framing. Abortion undoubtedly involves a woman’s bodily autonomy. But it also undoubtedly involves another living thing. (Regardless of what political rights you believe that thing should have, it’s alive as a scientific matter.) Even Roe recognizes that a societal interest in the unborn child kicks in during the second trimester. (Roe, by the way, is unusual even in developed countries. Where many countries have abortion by law, almost none guarantee it under their constitution. Around the same time as Roe, the Canadian Supreme Court declared abortion to be purely a legislative matter. And the German constitutional court declared allowing abortion to be an unconstitutional violation of a fetus’s right to life. That’s still the law in both countries.) It also involves society generally. The fact that the developed world spends tremendous amounts of aid money assisting developing countries to reduce their birth rates belies the idea that reproduction has purely individual effect. Framing it in purely individualistic terms makes it seem more like it shouldn’t be up for debate, but only because the framing cuts out all the interests actually involved. Likewise, a discussion about immigration isn’t just about the immigrant, but about the society that has to expend resources integrating and supporting the immigrant. When you reframe these issues in individualistic terms to exclude effects on other people, they seem more like things that shouldn’t be subject to debate. But that’s just a product of the artificial framing.

◧◩◪
782. 082349+2h2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-30 06:07:37
>>social+jV
I, for one, welcome our new culture jamming underlords.

testimonials for cloakingcompany.com: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24328764

◧◩
788. 082349+Rk2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-30 07:04:31
>>PaulHo+UF
St. Benedict's latin term for coolers is senpectae (516).

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/50040/50040-h/50040-h.html#c...

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦
797. raxxor+Ip2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-30 08:17:28
>>colinm+VQ
> Freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequences.

This phrase should be an example of Emperors New Clothes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech

Of course it is trivially correct for the most part because people have opinions, but the concept of freedom of speech directly addresses this.

> Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation

You don't even need to read more than 200 words and people using this phrase seem overly interested in the retaliation part through social excommunication. Bigotry in its original form.

◧◩
801. simonk+7q2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-30 08:24:38
>>mola+uy
This is explained by Foucault: if you think that you are being watched, you will censor yourself. He uses the panopticon as metaphor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon. Bauman later called our situation "Post-Panopticism".
◧◩◪◨⬒
809. znpy+Lt2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-30 09:20:40
>>nearbu+EE1
> I never found this type of argument satisfying. It's more of an appeal to emotion than a rational reason.

John Oliver used a similar tactic when speaking about Edward Snowden and the Patrioct Act. Instead of framing it about rights, pricacy and stuff, he talkes about dick picks. It kinda worked? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M

◧◩◪
823. 082349+lz2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-30 10:31:26
>>AQuant+2D1
Trend? Here's Orwell (1948) on the financial side of heterodoxy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23822425

"Freakin' internet. Whats up with that?" — M.I.A.

◧◩◪◨⬒
841. blaser+bT2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-30 13:26:30
>>istjoh+uW
To further this point, a RAND Corp study: "The Russian 'Firehose of Falsehood' Propaganda Model: Why It Might Work and Options to Counter It"

https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.html

◧◩◪◨
867. TheOth+wo3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-30 16:20:36
>>ajb+Et1
This is hilariously cynical because GCHQ and the other letter agencies have had automated listening, recording, and analysis systems in place for decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

◧◩
871. fsflov+uF3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-30 17:50:19
>>nixpul+Dv1
Use freedom-respecting non-profit social networks instead: https://joinmastodon.org.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
883. meekmi+Av4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-30 22:20:46
>>mola+rh3
> Because Trump supported white supremacists

This is a lie. 100% debunked lie. https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/trump-has-condemned-white-...

As far as women, framing Trump as a big meanie who says mean words totally ignores what he and his administration have actually done for women in the aggregate.

> Our nation has created more than 7 million jobs since the 2016 election — and women have filled over half, or more than 4 million, of those vacancies

> The unemployment rate for women stands at a minuscule 3.2%, and last September reached its lowest level since 1953

> And as the unemployment rate has declined, so too did the number of women in poverty, decreasing by 1.5 million in President Trump’s first two years in office

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/02/29/has_tr...!

The victims of sex trafficking are primarily women and children

> Worldwide, there are 40.3 million victims, with 75% women and girls and 25% children, according to The International Labour Organization

> Trump signed the Abolish Human Trafficking Act, which strengthens programs supporting survivors and resources for combating modern slavery

> [Trump] signed the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act which tightens criteria for whether countries are meeting standards for eliminating trafficking

> Trump also signed the Frederick Douglass Trafficking Victims Prevention and Protection Reauthorization Act, authorizing $430 million to fight sex and labor trafficking, as well as the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, which establishes “new prevention, prosecution, and collaboration initiative to bring human traffickers to justice.”

> since President Trump took office in January 2017, there have been nearly 12,470 arrests for human trafficking, according to arrest records compiled by investigative journalist Corey Lynn, and over 9130 victims rescued. Compare that to the 525 arrested in Barack Obama’s last year in office

http://www.dienekesplace.com/2019/07/28/the-number-of-human-...

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
889. shadow+6Y4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-10-01 02:01:23
>>Burnin+1d3
White supremacists often claim not to be for white supremacy, because it's not a good "look" in the mainstream.

But the Proud Boys absolutely are at the very least adjacent. With a decent dash of misogyny thrown in.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/grou...

◧◩◪◨
900. yokto+LW5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-10-01 12:45:33
>>browse+M85
I wasn't expecting such a long answer, but thank you for it because it is a rather unique point of view in my filter bubble.

First, yes the difference between survey tools and communication tools is always confusing for me in the privacy debate. But ultimately, they are deeply linked [2] with many cases that fall in between. In particular, the surveillance of communication tools is incredibly pervasive.

> double so when I'm a guest

Yes, when I was in China, I was more careful to approach discussions with an open mind and cautiousness for the legal repercussions. However, I'm not talking about being a guest, I'm talking about either being a citizen or an outsider. In both cases I think it's very important to think critically and express the potentially resulting criticism. (More below)

> So you're judging WeChat but what gives you the right?

Certainly not the CCP, lol. But seriously, more than WeChat/Tencent, which is just another interesting tech company, I'm judging the state control over it. And more than judging (but which I'm also doing), I'm formulating criticism based on observations of harm to people (I consider it evident that shutting up would be immoral) and (but this is our main point of disagreement) mind control by the state.

> Assange, Snowden, went too far.

It seems your threshold might be the word of law, but in that case they exposed illicit state actions. In any case, they did go far. To say they were co-opted is only partly true if not outright false: thanks to them, a significant portion of the population is defending itself and pushing for more scrutiny and changes.

> And then other countries are a different set of sensitivities again. Being conscious of that is good for everyone i think.

States and governments do not have sensitivities. You can not hurt their feelings.

> these sort of one-sided culture v culture attacks open you up to a whole lot of interesting counter criticism such as: the credit score, "stasi files", and criminal history checks

I'm using the nazi culture as an experience that enables me to construct criticism of other cultures. Whenever I see something that looks like it, I'm indeed judging it very much.

And yes, credit scores and criminal problems have their own problems, thank you for helpful criticism/judging/insert the word you prefer. You absolutely have the "right" to say it thanks to the millions of people who fought for freedom against kings, tyrannies, authoritarian states and even normal governments. But beyond what the current laws say, the fact that you have functioning brain is enough to justify judging. How and when you express that judgement should reflect the potential negative and positive consequences of that. Here I think that in the long term, censorship has more negative effects than offending, and call me insensitive, but I think that people (including myself) should really get better at receiving criticism and society would be overall better for it.

> Did you mean deploying the communications tools? That's an interesting if Luddite take: We should fold back to isolation because we're not ready. In essence I agree, to a degree, but I think that siloing is already handled and taken care of by various state and regional level blocks to some extent.

Yes, these tools, and I did not say "fold back to isolation", but to be cautious when expanding the existing relative isolation, because we can not foresee all the consequences of doing that. See the increase in mental health problems linked to the use of social networks for example. This, other issues like [1] and higher-level thinking like this very good talk on surveillance capitalism [2] makes me think that no, this is not "already handled and taken care of".

> you really so sure that China is, or is becoming one, while being so sure the West is not?

Nope, absolutely not. We need to watch both and the West has its fair share of issues, see [2] for one of the many examples. However, I do think that China is closer : more outright lies from the government, concentration camps for Uiguhrs and muslims, press controlled and manipulated by the state, systemic censorship, disappearing journalists and whistle-blowers, etc. You can find examples of this in the US (except for concentration camps I guess), but they will be rarer and more subtle, mostly because the system was designed to distribute power more evenly and minimize potential for harm. Which beautifully comes back to my first point: giving more power/communication tools to individuals should not be taken lightly.

> For me, I admire the Chinese transparency about what it is and technological efficiency. I believe such openness makes it easier for people to deal with and is the way forward long term. Whereas the covert harassment and secret tracking and "free press" propaganda in the West, under the guise of a "free and open society" I believe tips the scales of power less in the individual's favor, engages in needless deception, and is a more abusive aspect of the state-individual relationship than I think works.

I really see that point and myself I can not help but admire some of these aspects of China. However, systematic censorship of alternative views is one of the many other things China is not open about. The reason tracking is "secret" in the west is precisely because the individuals have more power, so saying it tips the scale doesn't really make sense. And because we have more power, we can work towards abolishing it. So if we think it's bad, we should. You aren't explaining why surveillance is good (see [2] on why it's bad), but you are essentially saying we should embrace it and it's not a big deal if we impose it on everyone.

> In my relationship with states I get privacy by what I choose to only think or feel. [..] What might be scary for me is if the entire world has one standard of acceptable ideas and acceptable behavior. I might feel restricted in that case because there'd be no country I could go to that was more conducive... so I think that any world government has to be widely tolerant of many things.

I encourage you to watch the german movie The Lives of Others (2006) for a closer look at what privacy and surveillance mean in an authoritarian state. You can not "change countries": there was a wall in Berlin where people were shot on sight. You start by arguing for more respect and consciousness towards different cultures and ended by saying that it's okay for states to choose what you think and discriminate for thinking differently, because that is what the sentence "In my relationship with states I get privacy by what I choose to only think or feel" means. Restricting speech restricts what you can hear which restricts what you can think.

[1] https://medium.com/@monteiro/designs-lost-generation-ac72895... > "Bobbi Duncan was “accidentally” outed by Facebook when she was a college freshman. When Bobbi got to college she joined a queer organization with a Facebook group page. When the chorus director added her to the group, a notification that she’d joined The Queer Chorus at UT-Austin was added to her feed. Where her parents saw it. Bobbi had very meticulously made her way through Facebook’s byzantine privacy settings to make sure nothing about her sexuality was visible to her parents. But unbeknownst to her (and the vast majority of their users), Facebook, which moves fast, had made a decision that group privacy settings should override personal privacy settings. Bobbi was disowned by her parents and later attempted suicide. They broke things." I recommend the entire article, it's completely opposite to your point of view and makes a good case in favor of individual discernment followed by actions.

[2] The Rise of Surveillance Capitalism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s4Y-uZG5zk

[3] Documentary on Uiguhrs "thought transformation camps" https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/087898-000-A/china-uyghurs-in-...

904. mikory+va6[view] [source] 2020-10-01 14:18:39
>>rapnie+(OP)
> https://www.mathwashing.com/

> There is a widely held belief that because math is involved, algorithms are automatically neutral.

> This widespread misconception allows bias to go unchecked, and allows companies and organizations to avoid responsibility by hiding behind algorithms.

I think the wording of this casts a shadow on what mathematics is. Opaque accounting or opaque algorithms, it doesn't matter what the underlying hidden components are. But the belief that the words "algorithms" or ever "smart" would hide things says more to me about people in management than it says about people who discover algorithms.

Mathematics can of course be weaponised, but a bigger problem is ignorance towards mathematics. After all, many things can be weaponised. I think the text on Tijmen Schep's websites have a good message, but I do think one should slow down when it comes to compassion fatigue. One way that I use to do this is to ask questions about concrete resources: What are things we need? What are the things we want? And are we progressing to improve people's living conditions?

For the most part, the answer to the last question is yes. It's important to realise this. There is a good book written about our progress as a society by I think an Estonian author, or another Eastern country. I wonder what it is called again.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
906. ezrast+DY6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-10-01 18:06:00
>>maniga+ob5
I don't really see the parallel. The poster I responded to seemed to be asking the question in a personal capacity, not from a position of power over others. When you front an organization representing, and being represented by, hundreds of people, then yes, politics are unavoidable by definition.

Furthermore, unless there's more context I've skimmed over (I assume you're referring to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24636899), it's not clear that Coinbase will suffer any negative consequences from this whatsoever aside from being shunned by activists, which I presume is a consequence they're okay with since they published a blog post explicitly alienating that group. The only folks being forced I see are the employees being told to pipe down or ship out.

(also, while it may not be substantive to this discussion, the belief that neutrality, especially explicit neutrality, is tacit endorsement of the status quo is neither extreme nor unreasonable)

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦▧
908. shadow+4e7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-10-01 19:21:27
>>lightg+Wz3
They did succeed in boosting the current President into the office, which is more than no power. How significant the power is of being a voting bloc the President can't seem to say no to is a question reasonable people can debate.

https://www.businessinsider.com/rick-santorum-trump-right-wi...

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
910. darios+n4a[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-10-02 19:18:09
>>ricksh+l22
this was made by an acquaintance: http://martinnadal.eu/fango/
[go to top]