Maybe they should have some king of regulation specific to them.
But I fail to see how making your product as addictive as you can, without breaking laws, is terrible. I mean, no one is forced to create a FB/TW/IG profile, as far as I know.
I'm not defending Social Networks, or saying that a case against them should not be made, I'm just saying that I can't get behind the "your product is too adictive" argument.
Just my two cents. Maybe I'm missing something right now that will force me to change my mind later.
Many have suspected it for a long while but this testimony proves that Facebook profits from hate groups and the spread of misinformation. That’s not hyperbole, that’s now fact.
Perhaps the real acceleration is in the ballooning expansion of who we consider a "hate-group" -- which seems to have no fixed definition and is thrown around rather cavalierly.
This is an interesting take. Usually I suspect people would say something more like "Making your product as addictive as possible is terrible, but definitely not illegal. And, it's difficult to design laws against something that is addictive and destructive."
I think it's pretty clear that "making your product as addictive as you can" is absolutely terrible. Again, I'm not sure that regulation can solve this problem in a constructive way, (and would love to be proven wrong here) but I fail to see how this isn't bad.
No one is forced to become obese, however it's definitely bad to have a nation full of obese people.
Go on Twitter or Facebook, or 4chan, 8chan, Voat or wherever you can find these crazies, and try to engage them in rational debate, and convince them their ideas are bad and yours are better. Let us know how that turns out.
What is the end goal? To make it impossible for crazy people to be heard online? Wouldn't a better goal be to educate ourselves on how to ignore the crazies and focus on reliable sources?
Do you believe QAnon has gone from a 4chan meme to a political movement which has gained the support of the President and seats in Congress because no rational adult or contributing member of society has ever fallen prey to them?
Human beings are not rational animals, human beings are emotional animals, we're great apes hardwired for paredolia and bigotry because it helped us survive the tall grasses of the Savannah a hundred thousand years ago. The assumption you and others like you make, that given a free (as in unregulated) market of ideas, rationality and truth will always win out, is as naive as the belief that ethics and quality always win in free market capitalism. Bad actors always dominate unless some external regulating force prevents them from doing so.
>What is the end goal? To make it impossible for crazy people to be heard online? Wouldn't a better goal be to educate ourselves on how to ignore the crazies and focus on reliable sources?
False dichotomy - we can do both. It is impossible to effectively educate ourselves or anyone else in an environment in which it is also impossible to distinguish good from bad information, or even attempt to do so, without fear of "censorship". We don't need to pretend Joe Rogan and Alex Jones are sources of truth on par with the BBC and Al Jazeera, or that evolution and the Book of Genesis are equally valid attempts to describe the natural world, or that QAnon represents a legitimate framework of political and social criticism, merely for the sake of allowing controversy, in the false belief that controversy is equivalent to freedom.
I think it's important to be clear about "addictive" because people use it in different ways. If by "addictive" you mean "really compelling" then, sure, it may not be intrinsically terrible. A product that, for example, makes it really compelling for users to improve their physical health or fight climate is probably not terrible.
But the clinical definition of "addiction" which is why "addiction" has a strong negative connotation is that for something that is so compelling that your need to use it causes significant disruption to your quality of life of that of those around you.
Read the testimony again. The argument here is not just that Facebook is super engaging. It's that Facebook use harms its users and the world at large and its level of engagement magnifies that.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/19/problem-gamb...
The primary purpose of making an addictive product is to remove peoples' agency by hijacking known deficiencies in our minds/bodies. It's a form of coercion, because your goal is to prevent people from being able to choose whether they use your product or not.
Why? Honest question. For instance, you mentioned obesity. Should a restaurant that makes the most delicious and sugar loaded food be forbidden to do so because its customers can't stop eating it and are getting obese?
IMO obesity is an individual problem. I'm all for helping obese people that want to change, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that they got themselves in that situation. The restaurant should not be punished for their clients lack of control. They should, however, be forced to let clients know exactly what they're eating, but after that, it's not their fault.
But I think I see where you coming from. They're getting people addicted to something wrong, did I understand you?
That is part of it, yes.
Also, the mechanism of addition itself often causes the harm. With chemical addiction, the same components that make the substance addictive also cause miserable withdrawal symptoms.
With social media, this is more nebulous, but I do think part of what makes systems like Facebook "engaging" is the anxiety they create when you aren't on them, and the low self-image that users try to assuage by posting flattering photos of their life.
Part of addiction (and advertising too, for that matter) is creating a need for your product in the mind of the user. They were probably happier before they had that need in the first place.
If they aim to remove agency, it's because you have it in the first place, meaning you can stop it from happening with proper information.
I understand that some people might not understand they are being targeted and should be clearly told what could happen to them. But the majority of people must know FB is addictive.
After that, I can't see how people still getting addicted is the company's fault.
To your example if McDonalds added cocaine to their fries, we would likely agree that that’s wrong and we should stop that behavior, right?
If it’s more along the lines of addiction like “people love fast food” but aren’t actually physically addicted to it, then I think it’s fine that the business owners make it more delicious or “more addictive”. In that case I’d agree it’s likely on the consumer to make the call. (I’m going to gloss over the realities of the fast food industry preying on lower economic communities and pretend we’re operating in a vacuum where someone has equal agency/ability to go eat McD’s or eat a healthier alternative.)
Well, when the product is mis-information that has been carefully tailored, evolved and tested to counteract proper information...
As for your McDonalds argument, cocaine is illegal. I stated that as long as it was within the law, I saw no problem.
Food might not be the best comparison to use.
Now, I think they should do it, but because they want to. If anyone is to take action, I think the way to go is to reach the obese people and help them. Explain why they should not visit the restaurant anymore.
> Part of addiction (and advertising too, for that matter) is creating a need for your product in the mind of the user. They were probably happier before they had that need in the first place.
I cannot agree with this. Facebook cannot be responsible for people wanting to be on the site/app or for which photos of their life they choose to post. I thought we were discussing the methods by which they make people want to be on FB.
As for your last paragraph, I may be missing your point. Advertising is creating a need for your product, or tapping an existing need. People being happier before they had that need cannot be a reason to stop companies from trying to sell a product. If you bought something that made you feel worse, you would probably just stop using it. Now, if you can't stop using it because you're addicted, but the company didn't do anything illegal to make their product addictive and the risks are clear (not saying this is FB case), why should they be blamed?
If I totally missed your point, please feel free to enlighten me.
The ad (which you never requested enter your life) makes you feel worse. The product just gets you back to your baseline.
I tried to cover this in my post, but this is why I believe it's a bit of an impossible situation. I don't believe that in your example the restaurant should be forbidden from selling the addictive and unhealthy food. Because it should not be illegal does not make it good. The law and morality are not one in the same.
The usual way people talk about this sort to thing is to invoke free speech. I should not be legally prevented from insulting you, or saying rude things to you. But, it's still an awful thing for me to do.
Regarding the problem being individual. I agree that's where the blame should rest, but the reality is that moral blame is often not really as useful as people want to believe. For example, with obesity, most people are making the 'wrong' decisions. Again, I'm not suggesting that government regulation should be invoked to try to fix this. But surely, it's not good a thing that so many people are unhealthy. And therein lies the problem. Who cares about blame? I don't care whose fault it is, but I would like to fix it. It's a near guarantee that the general public will not fix it. It's not even an American problem anymore: you're even seeing obesity in some parts of Africa. When most people have access to high calorie food most of the time, they will become overweight and obese. You can (maybe even should) assign blame to people for making the wrong decisions here. But that will do nothing to modify the problem.
And, as I said, I'm not necessarily arguing for regulation. But I would be curious if you think there is any solution here, or if you think there should be any solution here.
I never claimed any such personal faith or right, and that is a disingenuous reading of my comment. The chip on your shoulder is noted, albeit not compelling.
>QAnon isn't really much of a problem in the real world -- nobody is burning down cities and rioting because of it.
Hm... understate the threat of right-wing extremists, overstate the threat of left-wing activists.
Where have I seen that a million times before?
I just stated the facts. There are riots and violence in the streets of America right now. I'm not saying it's rampant, but it DOES exist. You can't point to the same to justify your fears about qanon and their incoherent ramblings.
As for the chip on my shoulder, i've tried to keep this civil even though I do strongly disagree with your desire to suppress the speech of your political foes.
> And, as I said, I'm not necessarily arguing for regulation. But I would be curious if you think there is any solution here, or if you think there should be any solution here.
That's a great point. Off the top of my head I am inclined to say there should not be any solution, besides making sure companies act within the law. But that's above my paygrade. I'm only stress testing my opinion.
As for the cocaine part, that’s immaterial to the thought experiment I proposed. I was just trying to delineate between true physical addiction and whatever makes me people want to eat unhealthy food. Say it’s something else that causes physical addiction but isn’t illegal.
Agreed, that's why I think companies should be forced to clearly state them, but not forced to stop users from consuming.
Another avenue could be providing proper education to individuals regarding addiction to food, drugs, etc... But this is beyond my scope of understanding.
> As for the cocaine part, that’s immaterial to the thought experiment I proposed. I was just trying to delineate between true physical addiction and whatever makes me people want to eat unhealthy food. Say it’s something else that causes physical addiction but isn’t illegal.
My bad. I didn't get that. But I still think, assuming they clearly state the risk of physical addiction, they should be allowed to sell their fries.
Now, just to convey this one more time, it's a totally different situation if they use something illegal to make the fries addictive. They should be punished.
Yeah, I think we understand each other. And, I appreciate your comments. too. I vary how I feel about this general issue depending on the topic.