zlacker

[parent] [thread] 9 comments
1. Whompi+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-07-30 14:23:28
Personally, I never downvote based on whether I agree with someone. I only downvote for low-effort comments that do not contribute, things like "lol" or 5-10 word comments with no evidence/explanation. Even if someone needs citations, I'm not going to downvote them, I'll ask for further evidence/citations, which in itself often gets downvoted.

I've been downvoted a number of times for posting well-written, thought-out responses which other people disagreed with. I've often been downvoted below zero within a minute of posting, just for playing Devil's Advocate. I think these downvoters react negatively to things they disagree with, and the downvote button for them is much simpler than actually dissecting and responding to an argument.

Do we want to live in a society where even the most technically minded forum, where objective truth should stand triumphant, falls to reactionary downvoters and fake news?

replies(4): >>jonwal+d >>happyt+n1 >>antist+1f >>bryanl+gl
2. jonwal+d[view] [source] 2020-07-30 14:24:56
>>Whompi+(OP)
I think your last point is far bigger than just on HN. I think most people are this way, unfortunately.
3. happyt+n1[view] [source] 2020-07-30 14:30:57
>>Whompi+(OP)
Note: The parent was significantly edited while I was writing.

>for posting well-written, thought-out responses which other people disagreed with

I could write a well-written, thought-out argument in favor of segregating blacks. I'm not suspicious of you - I'm just saying, maybe you're making too much assumption about how valuable your writing is, since you've only used "well written" and "thought out" as evidence.

>just for playing Devil's Advocate

Do you announce that that's what you're doing? Do you think there is such thing as a comment that deserves downvotes, but that wouldn't if it was written the same word for word with the exception of being announced as a thought exercise? (Not rhetorical - I suspect my personal answer is yes).

>within a minute

A minute is a long time.

> They are coddled and react negatively to things they disagree with

This is a broad and specific accusation to level at people just because they downvoted you. It's also a very convenient way to convince oneself that one is "the better person".

replies(2): >>basch+zk >>FreakL+GX
4. antist+1f[view] [source] 2020-07-30 15:40:44
>>Whompi+(OP)
> I've often been downvoted below zero within a minute of posting, just for playing Devil's Advocate.

I just want to point out that playing Devil's Advocate is not as innocent as you make it seem. Most people, when they say they're doing it are posting poorly supported populist arguments, based on some unsubstantiated folk wisdom or straight up fake facts. Not saying you did that in that particular case.

Playing Devil's Advocate is only valid when you're dealing with normative scenarios, for example when advocating for one policy over another, both of which have drawbacks and advantages.

When someone says they're playing Devil's Advocate for issues where the science has been mostly settled, it's usually what I stated above in the first paragraph, and becomes very clear that the poster has some ulterior motive or is personally attached to their beliefs over evidence.

So the reason those get downvoted is that when you have a wrong populist argument at the top of the thread, more people see it and adopt it as their position, thus perpetuating the cycle. To break the cycle, people downvote it.

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5. basch+zk[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-30 16:08:41
>>happyt+n1
None of that should really matter. Either it adds to the conversation or not. Conversation being the key word. Even if its a poorly thought out or written argument, if its mistakes generate good replies, its good for the goose.
replies(1): >>kangnk+9w
6. bryanl+gl[view] [source] 2020-07-30 16:11:30
>>Whompi+(OP)
> I've often been downvoted below zero within a minute of posting

Quick downvotes typically do more good than harm. In my experience both voting and receiving votes, a undeservedly grey comment gets more upvotes than a comment that hasn't been downvoted.

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7. kangnk+9w[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-30 17:04:13
>>basch+zk
The problem is that beside the comment, I am only left with one feedback lever, up or down.

Just image if I were given two feedback levers instead:

- This comment adds to the discussion/This comment does not add significantly to the discussion

- Agree/Disagree

replies(1): >>basch+T81
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8. FreakL+GX[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-30 19:51:28
>>happyt+n1
Perusing their history for an example, the most recent is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23882425, which (lightly) thinks through the question "Are religions another form of MLM?" in response to another comment.

It's fine as comments ago, until:

> Downvote brigade has arrived, I love receiving downvotes for playing devil's advocate; respond to me if you're disagreeing, don't downvote and bury what you dislike.

Looking further, the next example is similar, ending with:

> Here on HN, we have our own orthodoxy, too. Those who work with Rust find safe haven for their views, and the downvote brigade on HN will descend if you even mention the word Trump.

Which seems to have been inspired by the next after that, which is an iffy comment in any case, but once again:

> Edit: Apparently someone downvoted this comment within 60 seconds...this seems contrary to HN's ethos. I asked a general question with a specific example; is someone triggered by the words "Donald Trump"? This is pushing a legitimate question about FB's effect on the world down into the gray...is that a good thing?

And so on:

> Edit: Someone want to comment and explain why this is downvoted to -2?

I liberally downvote low-effort, mean, and, if I'm not going to take the time to respond, objectively wrong posts.

More than any of those, though, I downvote people who complain about being downvoted. You lost some Internet points. Who cares?

Word of advice, WhompingWindows: Stop. You're always going to see votes in both directions, but being net negative is usually transient. In your case the downvotes are sticking most likely because you're calling attention to them.

replies(1): >>Whompi+O69
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9. basch+T81[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-30 21:15:32
>>kangnk+9w
Why do we need to signal agree disagree? If you disagree, reply. The reader doesnt need comments sorted by most popular sentiment, that just reinforces bubbles.

I don't upvote things I agree with, I upvote unique contributions to discussion that arent the platitudes spread everywhere else, even ones I disagree with.

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10. Whompi+O69[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-03 02:08:43
>>FreakL+GX
"Who cares?" You're writing in a thread about "Why Do You Downvote?" and you researched numerous comments from my history. So, I think you care, and that proves that downvoting on HN is an interesting issue to you. I think HN cares too, because they disallow downvoting before 500 comment karma is reached.

Let's reset: I think the downvote should be used for low-effort, non-contributive comments like "lol" and "^this". Do you disagree on that point?

Next, I'll admit to self-puffery, no doubt my ideas are not as clever as I imagined when I typed them. However, I don't believe in downvoting merely based on philosophical disagreement. If I'm seen to "downvote brigade" against that practice, so be it, but I believe and will publicly state that downvotes shouldn't bury something that goes against HN/tech/societal orthodoxy. This is how hive-minds and pile-ons form; diversity of thought and opinion is healthy, and challenging one's own assumptions is illuminating. Do we want a community where a differing voice is grayed out and bottomed out within minutes?

Why do I care and fight for broader discourse? IMO, Social media can tend to reduce complex issues to mere scores based on camp-size, and I am fighting to re-complexify our dialogue. Let's upvote towards solid discussion and relish complexity and diversity of thought.

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