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Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle

submitted by apsec1+(OP) on 2020-07-26 06:08:47 | 46 points 45 comments
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28. 082349+yb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-26 08:51:12
>>mkolod+Z2
ideological battle: Burn the heretics! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. ὁμοιούσιον! ὁμοούσιον!

discussing ideas: What do the heretics think? How much do we (up to substitution of vocabulary) agree upon? What parts of the heresy are worth stealing and rebranding as orthodoxy? For that matter, what is the relative importance of orthodoxy and orthopraxy, anyway?

compare "WE DON'T DANCE": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23591306

31. _y5hn+fg[view] [source] 2020-07-26 09:57:00
>>apsec1+(OP)
Get your house in order, or enabling fascism will be a pointless exercise. Discussion here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/07/22/portland-c...
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35. dang+ig1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-26 19:54:00
>>x86_64+V2
In ideological battle, the goal is to defeat enemies. In curious conversation, the goal is to learn from each other. One is a fight, the other is open exchange. These don't go together, for the same reason that boxing and dancing don't go together.

This is obvious if you observe how people behave in ideological battle. They do not receive information from one another and then change. Rather, they wield their points as weapons to try to overpower the other side.

When the goal is to win rather than to learn, each side resorts to its best weapons over and over. In other words, each side behaves repetitively. Repetition fries curiosity. Since HN is for curiosity, we have to try to minimize repetition. [1]

In battle, repetition is crucial because there are only so many ways to hit the other side and you need to do it over and over in order to win. If you don't repeat, you don't survive. But curiosity looks for something new over what has already been said or done. Curiosity wants diffs [2].

Imagine software that could compare two HN threads A and B and output only the logical diffs of what was said in A vs. B. I don't mean diffs between the exact words used, but differences in the thoughts/feelings expressed. How much output would it produce when A and B are flamewars on the same subject? Virtually zero. That's the issue for HN. The best HN posts are the ones that can't be predicted from any previous sequence [3], and flamewars are the most predictable from previous sequences.

The issue is not politics as such [4]. To the extent that one can have curious conversation about political topics in which people exchange information, learn from each other, reflect on what the other says and take in any truth in it instead of getting triggered by it, and don't simply repeat things, such conversation is within the site guidelines. It's not easy for such threads not to collapse into a high-indignation-low-information state, but that's what we ask of users here, and what the site guidelines are getting at. We have to, because if we don't, the forum will burn—and scorched earth is not interesting [5]. Flamewars, especially political flamewars, have many secondary effects, and the chance of getting into a destructive feedback loop is high.

We've found that accounts tend to fall into a bimodal distribution: those that are using the site primarily for intellectual curiosity (and occasionally post about divisive topics as part of the mix), and those that are using the site primarily for ideological or political battle. It's not hard to understand why the distribution would be bimodal like this, because curiosity and battle are basically disjoint states. In battle you can't afford to be curious, and when curious, battle is not interesting.

In battle mode, the nervous system goes into fight/flight mode, which triggers reflexive responses. You can observe this by sensing how you react when you encounter the weapons of the opposing side on the internet. This state is incompatible with curious exchange, in which we learn new things from each other and adapt. Human beings require a certain relaxation in order to be open to each other in this way—again, anyone can observe this in the difference between when they're angrily defending vs. playfully interacting. The difference between the two styles of conversation—reflexive vs. reflective, closed vs. open—is palpable. They can't happen at the same time and on HN we want one and not the other [6].

[1] Curiosity withers under repetition: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu..., and generic discussion is intrinsically repetitive: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

[2] Curiosity is interested in diffs: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

[3] The best HN posts are the ones that aren't predictable from any previous sequence: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

[4] Some interesting topics inevitably have political overlap, and that's fine, as long as discussion remains substantive and curious: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

[5] Scorched earth is not interesting: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu..., so we need to protect the forum from burning: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

[6] Good HN posts are reflective, not reflexive: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

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36. dang+th1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-26 20:04:08
>>dvh+73
Somewhat, but hot as those flames burn, they don't bring up the same depth of life-and-death emotion that real battle does. When people feel existentially threatened—which is very much how it feels in political battle—we go into survival mode, and in survival mode there is zero ability or willingness to see the other side as human. How does that manifest in internet forums? As snark, as name-calling, as refusal to acknowledge any truth in the opposing comment, a willingness to distort whatever is said in order to get the upper hand over it—basically, all the conceptual equivalents to what you would do physically if someone were literally trying to kill you.

One would think that the relative triviality and distance of internet conversation would allow for greater feelings of safety, but in practice it's exactly the opposite. It seems to provide the perfect blank screen on which to project all our shadows, and so we end up feeling surrounded by demons: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so..., and since they're demons of our own creation, they know exactly where all our sore spots and vulnerabilities are, and keep activating them unerringly.

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37. dang+Ph1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-26 20:06:21
>>s9w+J3
If you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. We don't come close to reading everything that gets posted to HN—there's far too much. You can help by flagging it or emailing us at hn@ycombinator.com. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

If you think that one side gets consistently moderated while the other side doesn't—on whatever divisive topic—then you might be falling prey to the notice/dislike bias: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que.... Because of that bias, all sides feel like the site, the community, and the moderators are lined up against them, and they make interchangeable statements about it (except for the bit about which sides are supposedly favored).

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38. dang+ii1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-26 20:09:56
>>austin+u
Politics has never been completely off topic on HN. It's a grey area that needs to be decided case by case (i.e. thread by thread)—which unfortunately satisfies no one, but no other solution that I'm aware of is remotely feasible. It's neither desirable nor possible to ban all topics with political overlap (which includes most topics, after all); nor can we just let all political flames burn, because the site would become scorched earth in short order.

I've written extensive explanations about this: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu.... If anyone reads those and has a question that isn't answered yet, I'd like to know what it is. Some good threads to start with might be https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902396. Also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869, which shows how far back political discussion goes on HN, as well as the argument about politics on HN.

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39. dang+Ko1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-26 21:08:37
>>waynef+lO
For better or worse, HN is a non-siloed site (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...), meaning everyone sees the same things and is in one big room together. There are certainly design choices there, but each online community has its initial condition set and its pros and cons that flow from that. I don't think it's a question of perfection. It probably would not be wise to mess with those initial conditions—that would likely cause unintended consequences, so the bar to clear to justify it would have to be very high.

I've written about the pros and cons of the non-siloed format here, if anyone's interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098. It leads to a rather paradoxical situation.

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40. dang+qp1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-26 21:15:09
>>threat+j7
Curiosity is the value of the community because that's how it got started and that has always been its mandate. It's simply a question of being one kind of site rather than another. Does such a site have a right to exist? I think it does; the alternative would be that all sites must be the same, and that can't be right.

If so, it needs to be operated in a way that preserves it for that mandate. The default outcome is certainly not that, so we expend a lot of energy trying to stave that off, as one must when trying to escape entropy.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

The idea of "black American experiences conflicting with curiosity" strikes me as a bizarre formulation.

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43. dang+3K1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-27 01:27:48
>>threat+0G1
There have been many threads about those topics (the situation as of a month ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962) and related topics. I particularly liked https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23669188 because it got so many comments from black HN users sharing their experience. Similar examples:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23540162

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564048

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23772359

There's plenty of curious conversation there. There's also plenty of flamebait and flamewar, unfortunately, but that's unavoidable when the society at large is divided on a topic—or rather societies, since we have the added dimension of being a highly international community to deal with. The HN guidelines are written in such a way as to encourage the former and discourage the latter, but there are limits to what's achievable.

HN's mandate comes from how it was created. It has its particular niche. I think it's a good niche that is worth preserving, and I'm pretty sure the bulk of the community agrees, since that's why people come here. In a way, I like that you're questioning it, though. If the argument becomes "HN should have a different mandate", this suggests that it's doing an ok job of fulfilling the existing one.

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