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[parent] [thread] 18 comments
1. tsimio+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-07-07 18:44:55
No place in the US is left-dominant (this is true of most of Europe as well). There are right-dominant areas and centrist-dominant areas. Left discourse (think Chomsky) is extremely rare and almost never accepted in the media.
replies(3): >>leftyt+E8 >>rayine+4o >>eli_go+qt2
2. leftyt+E8[view] [source] 2020-07-07 19:38:00
>>tsimio+(OP)
> Left discourse (think Chomsky) is extremely rare and almost never accepted in the media.

It must really baffle you that Chomsky signed this letter.

replies(1): >>tsimio+SL
3. rayine+4o[view] [source] 2020-07-07 21:10:35
>>tsimio+(OP)
This is untrue when applied to social/cultural political issues. For example, the prevailing view during the Democratic primaries that undocumented immigrants should get universal healthcare coverage is to the left of nearly every EU country. Trump’s order required enhanced scrutiny of immigrants from certain Muslim countries is tame compared to Macron’s plans to essentially nationalize Islam. (And Macron is the left candidate—his far-right opponent is now receiving 45% of the support in polls.) Canada’s point-based immigration system, supported by the left and the right there, which heavily weighs English language fluency, would be denounced as irredeemably racist by the mainstream left in the US. What we are seeing in the media now, with attacks on the country’s founding documents and historical figures, would be utterly condemned in say France.

On social issues, our left is as far left as anywhere else in the developed world.

replies(3): >>jahaja+aC >>tsimio+IJ >>tptace+QS
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4. jahaja+aC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-07 22:39:13
>>rayine+4o
> And Macron is the left candidate—his far-right opponent is now receiving 45% of the support in polls.

A centre-right candidate doesn't become "left" just because there's a far-right candidate. Maybe in the US that rhetoric works, but not in the EU.

What poll are you referring to where Macron's far-right opponent received 45%? Le Pen has 26% - less than Macron - from what I can see [0].

[0] https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/france/

replies(1): >>rayine+MF
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5. rayine+MF[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-07 23:02:58
>>jahaja+aC
> A centre-right candidate doesn't become "left" just because there's a far-right candidate.

He's the more left candidate for purposes of this comparison, which is to compare where the U.S. is relative to France. So if Macron is to the right of Trump on muslim immigrants (and I think it's fair to say he is), and 45% of French support a candidate that is even further right, I think it's fair to say the U.S. is well to the left of France on the issue.

I was citing a head-to-head matchup in the second round: https://www.ft.com/content/6d8b9c7a-412c-11ea-a047-eae9bd51c...

> A recent Ifop opinion poll put Ms Le Pen narrowly ahead of Mr Macron for an assumed first round of the 2022 election, and within a few percentage points of victory in the second round (45 per cent to his 55 per cent)

replies(3): >>jahaja+iK >>Animat+GX >>eli_go+Pt2
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6. tsimio+IJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-07 23:32:46
>>rayine+4o
You're right that on issues of theoretical minority rights, the left-most position is actually pretty common in the US (gay rights, trans rights, feminism, we are all equal regardless of the color of our skin).

But even on the actual practical side of those rights, this is not true. Discriminatory policing practices, reparations for slavery, abortion rights for women, and others have very commonly held right-wing positions even among democratic voters and politicians.

And calling Macron left-wing is funny, especially since the election had a very clear divide: Le Pen for the (extreme) right, Macron for the center (even center-right), and Melanchon for the left (he won slightly less votes than Le Pen, while being universally derided and ignored in the press).

Note that I explicitly said that left-wing discourse is missing from the mainstream in the US AND Europe, and in fact this is true for most of the world in general, with only small pockets in South America and east Asia.

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7. jahaja+iK[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-07 23:36:16
>>rayine+MF
Sigh, that's just so blatant cherry-picking. Macron is deeply unpopular for his neo-liberal "reforms" that caused the yellow vests protests, a head-to-head polling against other candidates would likely render similar results.
replies(1): >>rayine+AR
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8. tsimio+SL[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-07 23:49:38
>>leftyt+E8
Why would it? There is a real problem with lack of tolerance of opposing ideas and witch hunting, obviously on the right but also in the center and even on the left.

And I have seen a lot of people on the left raising this problem and discussing how this will ultimately be used against them when, even when today it is done for mlre left-leaning goals. I think Professor Chomsky is extremely well aware of how easily tools of censorship are wielded against the voices of the minority.

And note that a lot of the grand-standing and calls to boycotts on these issues is coming from liberals, not leftists.

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9. rayine+AR[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-08 00:57:04
>>jahaja+iK
It’s not cherry picking. An American candidate that had said the things Le Pen has said would be completely unviable. There is a reason that Trump—who is concerned outside the American norms even among many Republicans—is always accused of using “coded language” and “dog whistles.” That’s because in the US, even the “right wing fascist” candidate can’t get away with saying the overtly racist things that European right-wing people can get away with.
replies(1): >>jahaja+0S
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10. jahaja+0S[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-08 01:04:03
>>rayine+AR
You blatantly cherry-picked the 45% number, but you seemed to ignore that part of my reply. Also, why are you changing the subject to what's allowed to be said or not? Trump's madness wouldn't be viable in the EU either.
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11. tptace+QS[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-08 01:14:12
>>rayine+4o
Hold on. That might have been the prevailing view counted by the candidates on stage, but it's not the prevailing view of the Democratic electorate, or of the nominee (Biden "supports" urgent care for undocumented immigrants, but does not support enrolling them in a national health plan). There was a crystal healer shaman on the stage for several of the debates; you can't just do this by roll call.

I agree with you in spirit, that we're further left than the American left realizes. But on this particular, I think you're wrong.

replies(1): >>rayine+xV
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12. rayine+xV[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-08 01:51:28
>>tptace+QS
That’s fair. My point wasn’t to really assert a conclusion about the Democratic Party as a whole, but rather to show that there is a robust social left in the US. To my knowledge, only two Western countries extend universal (rather than emergency) care for undocumented immigrants.
replies(2): >>dragon+eZ >>eli_go+ju2
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13. Animat+GX[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-08 02:20:47
>>rayine+MF
A centre-right candidate doesn't become "left" just because there's a far-right candidate.

Biden faces that. He's not a classic leftist, like Bernie Sanders, Ralph Nader, Gene McCarthy, or Hubert Humphrey, all of whom were presidential candidates. To today's GOP, Eisenhower and Reagan would be considered too far left.

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14. dragon+eZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-08 02:43:41
>>rayine+xV
The broad US support for this is at least in large part as a response to the enormous levels of undocumented immigrants present as a result of what is widely seen (across the political spectrum, though for different reasons) as an incredible failure of the US immigration system. You can’t meaningdully assess position on an ideological spectrum based on comparing preferred policy responses without considering the differences in the objective circumstances to which the policy responses are directed.
replies(1): >>tptace+yZ
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15. tptace+yZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-08 02:47:00
>>dragon+eZ
There isn't broad support for this as a policy. Everyone knows about this issue because it's one of the least popular potential Democratic policies, with a strong majority in opposition, which is why Biden doesn't support it.
replies(1): >>dragon+v01
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16. dragon+v01[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-08 02:58:48
>>tptace+yZ
> There isn't broad support for this as a policy.

Feel free to read it as “as broad as it is”, different polling from around the same time toward the end of when it was an active issue varied widely (I can find different polls from about the same time putting it at 30% and 11% support), and the exact breath of support isn't really relevant to my point.

17. eli_go+qt2[view] [source] 2020-07-08 17:33:52
>>tsimio+(OP)
I wasn't talking about "the media", but you're just being silly if you can go to a meeting of the Cambridge or Somerville City Councils (a majority of the latter are DSA members or allies, IIRC), or get involved in San Francisco's local politics, and think the Left (ie: the kind of Left that references Chomsky) is an insignificant force in those local contexts.
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18. eli_go+Pt2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-08 17:36:01
>>rayine+MF
>He's the more left candidate for purposes of this comparison, which is to compare where the U.S. is relative to France.

IMHO, the Democratic Party to En Marche is a fair comparison, but Our Revolution to En Marche is just silly. At that point, at least compare Our Revolution to the Parti Socialiste (a conventional European social-democratic party) and DSA to La France Insoumise (ie: the democratic socialist party founded by a former leader of the French Communists).

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19. eli_go+ju2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-07-08 17:37:39
>>rayine+xV
>To my knowledge, only two Western countries extend universal (rather than emergency) care for undocumented immigrants.

Not to derail, but extending public health care to undocumented immigrants in a pandemic just makes sense. Undocumented doesn't mean vaccinated, so there's a clear public interest in minimizing the absolute number of COVID-19 carriers, no matter their legal status.

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