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1. kleiba+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-23 15:58:15
It's crazy but from a European perspective, stories like this sound more like what I imagine police forces to behave like in dictatorships, not in a democracy.

After living in Europe for six years now, my wife is still puzzled sometimes by the differences between Europe and North-America when it comes to the police: how they are experienced by the population and how they see and present themselves and which role they think they're playing in society. Big difference. I'm certainly over-generalizing but here, we see cops as approachable and helpful in general (with exceptions) while in North-America, at least my wife's impression is that of cops being mostly intimidating (again, with exceptions).

Of course, this is all complex and different social and societal aspects play a big role, such as e.g., the odds for a cop of running into an armed person. But when I read how the police handled the situation with the group of black trick-or-treaters, it seems so foreign to me now from a more European perspective.

I suppose accountability is always going to be an issue - who watches the watchmen? But it should not be - in a democracy especially, there should be functioning mechanism to prevent abuse of power, and that of course applies to police actions, too.

replies(10): >>treis+U5 >>ATsch+8a >>usrusr+Ha >>jorblu+kb >>conanb+Ab >>mindsl+oc >>hef198+jf >>ip26+Jz >>x86_64+BA >>throw_+JM
2. treis+U5[view] [source] 2020-06-23 16:20:32
>>kleiba+(OP)
The US has an order of magnitude more crime than Europe but is policed by roughly the same number of officers. That, justifiably or not, leads to short cuts where extrajudicial and unjust tactics are used to enforce compliance.
replies(1): >>trowaw+Z6
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3. trowaw+Z6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 16:23:35
>>treis+U5
> "[...] justifiably or not [...] extrajudicial and unjust tactics are used"

...how could this be justifiable?

replies(1): >>treis+Oi
4. ATsch+8a[view] [source] 2020-06-23 16:33:55
>>kleiba+(OP)
European police forces are not very different in practice. They are significantly less blatant about it though. But we see the same general behaviors and narratives. The average person is a lot less likely to encounter these abuses though.
5. usrusr+Ha[view] [source] 2020-06-23 16:36:41
>>kleiba+(OP)
I think the central difference is that in much of Europe, the the ideal of the perfect police officer would be someone who actively helps people to stay out of trouble, e.g. calming down a brewing pub fight situation before it gets out of hand, or warn you before doing something wrong. I guess this ideal also exists in the US, but there it is counteracted by the opposite ideal in which the police is no position to bother anyone who isn't clearly and undeniably in the wrong, but then cracking down hard. "Don't mess with Freedom unless it's of gunpoint-grade importance."
replies(1): >>shadow+LL
6. jorblu+kb[view] [source] 2020-06-23 16:39:30
>>kleiba+(OP)
Europe has a huge leg up on this problem due a variety of factors. One of which is relatively homogeneous population, which has historically made it easier to make decisions, approve/fund social programs and also not treat fellow citizens as "the others". Ethnicity and citizenship are closely linked.

The US has always had this exclusionary divided culture due to its diversity and racism. It makes it hard to fix some of the larger issues that exist, since much of the debate is framed as "us vs them".

You can see similar issues in countries like Malaysia, where the parties are mostly split on ethnic lines.

This isn't excusing this behavior at all. Just context.

replies(1): >>kevin_+sk
7. conanb+Ab[view] [source] 2020-06-23 16:40:52
>>kleiba+(OP)
I do remember the police beating people for having the fake voting in Barcelona a couple of years back. Or the french police clashing with the yellow jackets.

What (some) european countries have is a much lower violent crime rate, which might jade perceptions either way.

replies(1): >>glogla+dC
8. mindsl+oc[view] [source] 2020-06-23 16:44:24
>>kleiba+(OP)
A dictatorship is effectively what the police have become - a top down command structure that has escaped democratic oversight and the rule of law.

Continuing the theme, many police actually take indirect bribes. Look up Patrolmen's Benevolent Association cards and the like. There are different levels of tokens depending on connectedness and donation level, and you can find them openly discussed on police forums. I would guess the only reason we haven't developed a culture of on the spot cash bribes is that police would take the money and write you a ticket anyway for having insulted them. They have a psychological need to pretend they are on the right side of the law.

9. hef198+jf[view] [source] 2020-06-23 16:54:47
>>kleiba+(OP)
Usually police in dictatorships, at least the more successful ones, tend to be much more professional, polite and non-brutal. Until they are very professional, very cruel and very brutal. The latter usually against very well defined groups, in very well defined ways.

Simple reason being, that random police violence just results, ultimately, in the kind of uproar and civil unrest the US experience now. Basically the last thing dictatorships want.

replies(2): >>tartor+9k >>chilla+zC
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10. treis+Oi[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 17:05:41
>>trowaw+Z6
Let's assume that Europe's cops are at 100% capacity to handle their crime justly. That means the US cops can do the same for only 10% of the crime they see. Leaving 90% of the crime to go unpunished. Or they can do shady tactics and respond to more crime at the cost of Injustice.

Obviously the ideal solution is to 10x the capacity of the criminal justice system but nobody's paying for that.

replies(1): >>FireBe+cT
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11. tartor+9k[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 17:10:17
>>hef198+jf
Dictatorships also project power through police so imagine high intimidation from “the system” or “the state”. USA uses a similar power projection to keep people afraid and supposedly lawful.
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12. kevin_+sk[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 17:11:47
>>jorblu+kb
And the Roma have never had a problem with systemic racism?
replies(3): >>crooke+6n >>jorblu+oq >>jcranm+aN
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13. crooke+6n[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 17:22:13
>>kevin_+sk
Or, for another blatant example, the way the Irish were long treated as subhuman by English overlords.
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14. jorblu+oq[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 17:34:06
>>kevin_+sk
On the level of black Americans? Probably not, no. Literal slavery is not the same level of oppression as discrimination.
replies(1): >>RcouF1+151
15. ip26+Jz[view] [source] 2020-06-23 18:11:23
>>kleiba+(OP)
I am inclined to believe a recent discussion that argues police unions are the root of all this. I don't think you can say it's anything fundamental about law enforcement in the United States, as sheriffs and state troopers (highway patrol) don't seem to have the same scale of problems. You might argue it's an urban vs rural thing, but they still deal with their share of violence, arms, drug traffic, etc. Sheriffs are elected, and there is no sheriff's union.
16. x86_64+BA[view] [source] 2020-06-23 18:14:55
>>kleiba+(OP)
You have to remember that policing in the US has a strong lineage from the slave patrols of the antebellum era. That aspect of racial abuse and control is the set point for policing and safety in the country.
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17. glogla+dC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 18:21:01
>>conanb+Ab
I think European police is about as brutal and vicious when suppressing dissent (like yellow vests or the Catalonia thing) but significantly less likely to just murder you for fun when you're just walking on the street.
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18. chilla+zC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 18:22:43
>>hef198+jf
I actually found that most of the police in China are not particularly scary. I'm sure they can mess up your day if they wanted to, but the day to day officers are unarmed, not particularly physically imposing (lots of normal looking men and women). They wear a sort of light blue office collared shirt.

Outside of big cities it gets even more lax. You just see police officers hanging out like regular people. I once saw an old guy get into an argument with the cops that looked like an argument between two people, not between "officer and civilian". In the US that wouldn't happen, the officer would feel slighted and probably arrest that guy, or the guy would never dare to talk back to a police officer in the first place.

But to your point I suspect the military police is very brutal.

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19. shadow+LL[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 19:03:48
>>usrusr+Ha
If you've never seen it, the movie "Hot Fuzz" is a brilliant piece of satire because it starts as a British cop drama and ends as an American cop drama.
20. throw_+JM[view] [source] 2020-06-23 19:07:18
>>kleiba+(OP)
Plenty of violence and impunity in European polices, especially in France, you don't hear about it because death are rare, but there is plenty of abuse that goes unpunished. women are getting raped in precincts in France for instance. The only reason one of these cases got out is because the victim was a Canadian woman and France couldn't cover it up this time.
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21. jcranm+aN[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 19:09:45
>>kevin_+sk
Actually, I think that sort of reinforces the point: Europeans don't really treat their minorities better than their Americans, but their minorities are more, well, minor, so the problems are much more invisible. The "undesirable" minorities in the US (i.e., blacks and Hispanics) make up about ⅓ of the population, while corresponding "undesirable" minorities in European countries tend to be around the 10% range.
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22. FireBe+cT[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 19:33:15
>>treis+Oi
One of the slogans of the Thin Blue Line is "Sometimes there's justice, sometimes there's just us."

Perhaps less people would see fascist, totalitarian overtones in law enforcement if some segments of the police wouldn't openly state this.

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23. RcouF1+151[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 20:31:32
>>jorblu+oq
> On the level of black Americans? Probably not, no

Roma were literally being sent to death camps to be exterminated throughout much of Europe 75 years ago.

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