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My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

submitted by danso+(OP) on 2020-06-23 14:13:08 | 792 points 397 comments
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4. rmrfst+9g[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 15:24:30
>>danhar+Ue
Strictly speaking, that is not in their budget.

Comes from anonymous donors [1]. Nothing strange about that.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/21/nyregion/terrorism-nypd-i...

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6. ciaran+Ng[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 15:26:50
>>danhar+Ue
For those curious who didn't know about this (like me):

>With offices in 11 foreign capitals and an unpublished budget, the ILP’s far-flung counterterrorism cops operate outside the authority of top U.S. officials abroad, including the American ambassador and the CIA station chief, who is the nominal head of U.S. intelligence in foreign countries.

>The ILP is supported by private donors through the New York Police Foundation, which won't say how much it has given the NYPD, beyond a sentence on its Web page that it sought to raise $1.5 million for the program in 2010. The NYPD itself won't say whether any of its annual $178 million budget for intelligence and counterterrorism goes to posting detectives in Paris, London, Madrid or other posh capitals.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/11/nypds_fore...

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13. jfenge+5j[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 15:35:12
>>joshua+fh
I don't know what style guide ProPublica uses, but very recently AP decided to capitalize Black when used as a cultural term when it conveys "essential and shared sense of history, identity and community among people who identify as Black". They go on to say that they expect to make a decision soon about whether to do that with "white" as well.

https://blog.ap.org/announcements/the-decision-to-capitalize... https://apnews.com/71386b46dbff8190e71493a763e8f45a

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14. jibcag+8j[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 15:35:15
>>joshua+fh
“For many people, Black reflects a shared sense of identity and community. White carries a different set of meanings; capitalizing the word in this context risks following the lead of white supremacists.”

https://www.cjr.org/analysis/capital-b-black-styleguide.php

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54. danso+Dy[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 16:32:36
>>fallin+9m
In terms of sweeping reforms, no – especially re: qualified immunity with SCOTUS recently declining to reexamine it [0]. But I would venture to claim that the Overton window on what police can be held accountable has certainly changed. That all 4 police in the George Floyd case were arrested and charged was unexpected, given the lack of consequences in the Eric Garner case. The arrests and assault charges for officers who attacked protesters in Atlanta [1] and Buffalo [2] is the kind of thing I never thought we'd see, and signals an opportunity (albeit unguaranteed) for the balance to change. The change in public perception is quite striking – including a doubling of white Americans since 2015 who think police brutality is a "very serious problem [3]. And this shift is happening under a presidential administration that is one of the least likely to take federal action against or even just criticize law enforcement.

[0] https://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-qualified-immunity-p...

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/us/atlanta-police-booked-felo...

[2] https://abcnews.go.com/US/buffalo-police-officers-arrested-s...

[3] https://apnews.com/728b414b8742129329081f7092179d1f

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56. mijoha+8z[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 16:34:10
>>dhosek+su
Interestingly, wallmart has their own forensics lab[0]

[0] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/04/csi-w...

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66. kens+wA[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 16:41:02
>>danhar+Ue
Another weird thing about the NYPD is that each police officer gets 20 so-called "get out of jail free" cards to give to friends and family. The recipient can show the card to the police if pulled over and use the card to "wiggle out of minor trouble".

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42780382

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82. uoaei+8E[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 16:54:42
>>pdonis+3y
https://www.joincampaignzero.org/
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84. abando+rE[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 16:55:40
>>ixtli+2g
Public legal record shows that the police are there to protect society rather than any person. Their job is to maintain law and order sufficiently so that society doesn't collapse, people keep working, etc.

"the duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

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93. austin+WG[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 17:03:33
>>uoaei+RF
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics

In practical application ethics violations are knowable breaking of rules or demonstrable malicious intentions.

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141. fzeror+JT[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 17:52:00
>>austin+lF
Here you go [1]. This DB contains multiple provable violation of ethics in multiple measurable and easily digestible forms such as graphs and stats.

I assume you will agree that this is close to objectivity and therefore police are indeed corrupt?

[1] https://github.com/2020PB/police-brutality

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151. lostlo+7W[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 18:02:01
>>throwa+YK
Can you provide a source? That number of killings is a lot lower than any source I have seen (and the police reporting of deaths they are involved with is very problematic).

Hispanics are killed at a disproportionate rate, and blacks are killed at a vastly disproportionate rate - according to the below blacks are killed at twice the rate of whites.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic...

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154. vageli+tW[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 18:03:47
>>bsanr+LL
It's sickening. https://classroom.synonym.com/how-to-get-a-pba-card-in-new-j...
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158. vidarh+lX[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 18:06:42
>>pjc50+Ck
We recently had a case in the UK where a prominent (as in winning the British Empire Medal for her services to nursing prominent) nurse was stopped by police, and was too scared to get out of the car.

When she told the police this, their response was "I don’t believe you because you’re talking to police officers."

She ended up being arrested for obstruction because they kept failing to understand that her reluctance to comply was because they terrified her, and they can be heard in the bodycam footage [1] going "This is nonsense, there's something in this vehicle" after listening to her telling her dad she's afraid the police officer is going to harm her.

When the police officer starts dragging her out, she is screaming over the phone for her dad to call the police.

The officer is thankfully relatively calm, and it ended without physical harm to her, but this is a quite stark demonstration of the kind of fear the police has created, and how they then perpetuate that by not teaching their officers to understand the existence of that fear and interpret non-compliance resulting from that fear as indication of criminal activity.

She's was cleared, and is pursuing a claim against the police, but of course a claim will not address the fundamental ignorance among a lot of police officers about the fear they are inducing.

I can only imagine how much worse that fear must be in the US - at least in the UK police is rarely carrying firearms - and how awful that fear must be for parents.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/18/nurse-claims-m...

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171. x86_64+Z01[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 18:20:30
>>corebi+OU
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not true. Th US and the Caribbean have a slaver and white supremacists culture that didn't exist in the UK.

https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/

https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/...

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=WLovR6DgNFEC&oi=...

https://plsonline.eku.edu/insidelook/brief-history-slavery-a...

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183. Wohlf+d31[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 18:30:58
>>asjw+u11
>Or, from another angle, it means that criminality in US is so much worse than the average EU country that it's ok to kill so many people in the name of safety.

Number of homicides in the USA in 2017: 19,510

Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.0

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Number of homicides in Italy in 2017: 357

Deaths per 100,000 population: 0.6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Italy

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189. dang+T51[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 18:41:44
>>woeiru+131
"Don't be snarky."

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

"Eschew flamebait."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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199. vidarh+N81[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 18:55:30
>>blub+q21
Being afraid of being killed, sure. Being afraid of having your life messed with, on the other hand is very reasonable in a lot of European countries too.

Even Theresa May acknowledged in her very first speech as PM that there were problems with institutional racism in the Metropolitan Police for example.

And top Met officers have also talked about problems with racism [1] and warned about misuse of stop and search. Each little abuse of power adds to an environment of fear.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/14/former-top-m...

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219. thephy+1g1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 19:26:00
>>SuoDua+y21
> but being comfortably middle class now, I also recognize it's something of a nonstarter with people who don't have that experience.

I think this is one of the two culture clashes happening with police versus civilians right now.

After the protests in the wake of the Michael Brown killing, there were articles written[1][2] about how there are a ton (many dozens) of tiny towns around Saint Louis each only a few city blocks large that prey on their citizens like parasites. Middle class people have largely moved out of these towns so they avoid this problem.

I don't think "defund the police" is a particularly good slogan and this is likely the reason other comfortably middle class families are likely to reject that calling.

But I also think that those who are comfortably middle class and ignoring the very real struggles of the lower class at the hands of the police and their governments have a duty to help lift their fellow Americans up and at least learn about the problems they face, if not do something about them. If we don't, we are no better than the pre Civil War city dwellers of the North comfortably ignoring the plight of the slaves and the indentured servants in the agrarian south.

[1] https://www.npr.org/2014/08/25/343143937/in-ferguson-court-f...

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/0...

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223. austin+Ig1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 19:28:40
>>krapp+s71
* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Texas

* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Arizona

As two quick examples check out the open carry laws in Texas and Arizona where registered personally owned firearms per capita is among the highest in the country.

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229. stefan+Ii1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 19:35:52
>>ciaran+Ng
keep having to preface everything lately with "not a joke," but no joke the NYPD's International Liaison Program, which has a secret budget and operates in 13 foreign countries with no oversight, just showed up in an official NYPD cruiser for a pro-police demonstration in Paris

https://mobile.twitter.com/newyorkyearzero/status/1273754924...

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244. s1arti+fn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 19:56:34
>>sixoth+ka1
I think total killings are pretty accurately reporting.

There were about 1100 police killings in 2019. This includes people shot or beaten to death by officers on or off duty. [1] About 10% of these people were unarmed. This statistic is the one which is most likely under-reported. About 50 police are feloniously killed per year [2]

[1] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/05/policekillings/ [2] https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-release...

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245. austin+Bn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 19:58:21
>>fzeror+hm1
Original question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23616331
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246. WillPo+Gn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 19:58:35
>>asjw+m51
How do you know they aren't making a dent in the numbers? You don't know, and can't know, the counter factual. One anecdote though, police are doing less policing right now in cities like Chicago, and the the outcome is not looking good.

At least 106 people shot, 14 fatally, in Chicago weekend violence

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-week...

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250. WillPo+yo1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 20:02:55
>>jaybee+lj1
How do you know it isn't doing much to stop it? The story of Camden NJ says the opposite. Crime flourished as the police force shrunk, and declined when they disbanded and reformed a much large force.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/apocalypse...

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253. alasda+9p1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 20:06:02
>>collyw+r31
>The most violent people in society will likely have interactions with cops (more often than your average person) so surely that must skew the odds a lot.

This is important point. Another one is that it's likely cops ARE some of the most violent people in society. For example, look at the instances of violent crime inside the home (i.e. when a cop is off-duty, so there should be no skew) - the numbers seem to indicate that domestic abuse is more common that not: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-...

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258. alex_y+Hq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 20:14:08
>>WillPo+Xm1
A more likely culprit: Leaded gasoline [0].

I think the GP is correct to point out the gun thing too. Having lived in a place where guns aren’t as accessible and observing how people live, I’m sure there is some correlation.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93crime_hypothesi...

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264. morgan+3s1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 20:21:58
>>vidarh+Cp1
> gradual escalation

Part of the reason for the quick escalation is that (American) cops are taught things like the Tueller Drill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwHYRBNc9r8 that claims that an attacker can close 21 feet in 1500 milliseconds and stab a victim so many times that even a fast ambulance response won't save him from bleeding out.

This idea means the cop has to unholster a pistol as soon as any sign of noncompliance is showm, start firing if a person "reaches for their waist", and empty the magazine because this Olympian attacker won't be stopped by a few bullets.

They just "want to get home to their families" despite the fact that car accidents are deadlier to cops and garbage men have more dangerous jobs.

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270. freen+zu1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 20:34:33
>>centim+7N
One third of all people killed by strangers, are killed by cops[0]

Cops take more in assets than robbers. [1]

[0] https://granta.com/violence-in-blue/

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-...

Nota Bene: your down votes are from a lack of evidence combined with an aggressive demeanor. Neither are a good look.

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274. air7+dv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 20:38:10
>>pjc50+Ck
I just don't get it.

The number of unarmed black men shot by police across the entire US in 2019 was 14. [0] How does such a small number spark this level of fear and protest?

Also, do people actually think the police generally and on average does more harm than good as to request abolishing it?

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police...

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278. aaronb+qw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 20:43:01
>>mac010+ss1
Only 60% of murders are solved. https://www.vox.com/2018/9/24/17896034/murder-crime-clearanc...
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290. handof+3B1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 21:06:03
>>air7+dv1
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/... Says 42 unarmed black people in 2019. But if we ignore race, 170 unarmed people got killed in 2019. By comparison, the FBI says there's an average of 64 law enforcement personnel killed.

An encounter with the police is actually 3 times more dangerous for citizens than it is for the police. And that's for an unarmed person.

If we concede that the police "have a dangerous job", then interacting with them, (which again, is three times more dangerous) should reasonably be pretty terrifying.

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297. throwa+GD1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 21:18:37
>>pjc50+Ck
> Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police.

Black people killed by police in 2018 [1]: 209

Black people murdered by civilians (of any race) in 2018 [2]: 7,407

White people killed by police in 2018 [1]: 399

White people murdered by civilians in 2018 [2]: 6088

Aren’t criminals a greater threat than police for both black and white peoples? Of course this isn’t the whole picture of what interactions with police look like, but if you are scared for your children’s lives, criminals seem to be a much greater threat regardless of race.

> the police are the people most likely to assault or kill them or their children on the street, more so than random criminals

This does not seem to be even remotely correct. Am I missing something?

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de...

[2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in...

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306. michae+hJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 21:48:28
>>anoonm+R21
Lets start with the actual number of gun related homicides per day 40.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

You are comparing the number of gun deaths in 2 populations and concluding that the difference in total deaths indicates a commensurate increase in dangerous situations faced by officers. Your inclusion of gun suicides makes it extremely difficult to be charitable with your interpretation.

Greater gun suicides correlates with hopelessness and availability of guns not danger to officers and these deaths of despair are literally 60% of the gun deaths you are talking about! Half of the remaining were murdered by someone they know. Most of the remaining 20 not 100 daily murders seemingly random violent murders aren't really random they are criminals murdering other criminals.

Cops aren't overwhelmingly dealing with gang bangers they are overwhelmingly dealing with members of the general population and lots of low level offenders because that is what's out there. That is who they are murdering. They are murdering a broad swath of the population mostly not entirely focused on black people literally because they can get away with it.

Instead of pretending we can't look at the deaths in proper context we ought to analyze the deaths in their proper context. Although this is hard to do in a comment thread your reasoning is in this case worse than nothing because it gives one the false impression that you have a handle on it.

Please stop apologizing for murderers.

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320. rbecke+ON1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 22:16:50
>>air7+dv1
> How does such a small number spark this level of fear and protest?

Because it's on the news, while the 51 unarmed whites killed by police in 2019 [1] aren't.

[1] https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/nationaltrends

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322. Pfhrea+wO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 22:21:39
>>DenisM+wK1
Sure, here's a handful:

https://komonews.com/news/local/police-union-president-defen...

https://mynorthwest.com/70234/police-union-head-vehemently-d...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/07/13/se...

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/memo-seattle...

http://www.courts.wa.gov/content/publicupload/eclips/2015%20...

https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article64596437.ht...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/seattle-cop-punches-teen-in-fac...

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340. dredmo+w92[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-24 00:34:34
>>FireBe+oh1
11-99 Foundation in California, by persistent legend:

https://priceonomics.com/can-you-buy-a-license-to-speed/

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341. Pfhrea+pa2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-24 00:39:37
>>DenisM+MZ1
Outrageous is your word. Have you seen the video? The cop full on decks a woman who gives his arm a light push. It's definitely out of line, he's not trying to defuse the situation, he's grappling another woman and is clearly out of control of the situation.

This continues a pattern of excessive force from the dept. From the Justice Department's findings on the SPD:

> Our investigation finds repeated uses of excessive force for charges related to minor offenses, including pedestrian interference, obstruction, open container violations, jaywalking, and shoplifting. In a number of incidents, failure to use tactics designed to de-escalate a situation, led to increased and unnecessary force.

https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/crt/legacy/2011/...

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342. sagarm+ib2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-24 00:46:15
>>sudosy+dc1
They've tried: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323539804578264...
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365. austin+t03[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-24 08:49:46
>>glitch+Ju1
My experience with social media is that the goal is purely social reinforcement, not discussion. Typically HN is better than that but purely political threads like this with absolutely no technology or business focus tend to draw out people not primarily focused on discussion. That is why I deleted my Reddit account. Here is an example from this thread where a commenter, in their own words, is distressed only that I don’t just agree: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23617015
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376. mcny+rg4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-24 16:53:18
>>chines+VX2
> Look at a Norway prison

Thank you for the reply. Yes, I understand that Scandinavian countries do a lot of things better. I also understand that prisons are terrible in the US and jails are worse still.

However, from stories I've heard about "interrogation techniques"...

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=https:/...

My understanding is that it is unlawful to torture (physically, mentally, ...) into answering questions and/or confessing to any crime in the US and you have a right to remain silent (in theory at least) in police custody. How well is enforced in other countries?

From what I understand, local police (talking about custody, not jail or prison) in the US will sometimes use torture techniques like isolation or suicide watch and will beat suspects when they get a chance (moving between rooms or whatever) but this is uncommon.

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381. runeks+sM4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-24 19:13:16
>>vkou+Iq
I’ve heard people suggest that public workers should not be allowed to unionize. To me, it sounds like an extreme position, but stuff like this makes me consider it more seriously.

If the ability to cover up criminal acts is a consequence of police unions, there’s no doubt in my mind that they should be abolished.

Unions make a lot of sense, unless they can negotiate impunity on behalf of their members.

EDIT: Interesting article on this subject: https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-trou...

Quote from the article:

When it comes to advancing their interests, public-sector unions have significant advantages over traditional unions. For one thing, using the political process, they can exert far greater influence over their members' employers — that is, government — than private-sector unions can. Through their extensive political activity, these government-workers' unions help elect the very politicians who will act as "management" in their contract negotiations — in effect handpicking those who will sit across the bargaining table from them, in a way that workers in a private corporation (like, say, American Airlines or the Washington Post Company) cannot. Such power led Victor Gotbaum, the leader of District Council 37 of the AFSCME in New York City, to brag in 1975: "We have the ability, in a sense, to elect our own boss."

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382. Pfhrea+P15[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-24 20:29:16
>>DenisM+6B2
Footage from the protests shows pretty extreme violence, and SPD shot and killed a black man in lower Queen Anne in May of this year after charging him with a dog. Yes, the suspect had a knife and was very loud, and may have been suffering from mental health or a crisis, but SPD definitely could have handled this differently.

https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-police-investigating...

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394. SuoDua+Zze[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-28 17:00:26
>>divbze+vF1
Well, I can give you a simple example. Where I grew up, you'd hear a gunshot every so often. No one paid it any mind - we knew it was the neighbors hunting out of season.

Technically a crime. But we all knew they and their children needed the meat. If everyone did it, the deer population would collapse and no one could hunt effectively even in-season. If someone had called a wildlife officer they could have certainly made the trek down. But no one would think to call the wildlife officers on them, because we knew it would lead to their children going hungry.

I think the thing people from rich neighbourhoods miss about that sort of thing is that when they hear stories of that nature [1], people's children going hungry over a minor infraction is seen as a failure of empathy on the constabulary's part. It's not. It's a failure of the law, and the constabulary's job is to uphold the law, not play social worker to people who break it. Hence our community's collective judgement that it was in everyone's best interest if the wildlife officer never found out about our neighbor's poaching activities.

[1] Joe Oliver has a great rant about a similar situation, lest readers think this only works in rural settings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UjpmT5noto

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