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1. vmcept+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-18 17:26:06
Sure, thanks for responding, so I didn't say racist or racism or make any conclusion, and that was on purpose!

I left it as open ended as my actual thoughts are, but acknowledge that it would be beneficial to factor in what so many people that look like me are saying are shared experiences.

Yes, I can tell when people are consciously trying to patch their behavior around black people (or other groups), distinct from being actually insensitive and distinct from treating them like people they are actually comfortable around.

You really don't have to feel like you are stepping on eggshells, even in your explanation here. I would call that awkwardness you described as a microaggression because it is an experience that shouldn't be a part of my daily experience, and it shouldn't be something you have to worry about, but in this case it would come from you towards me. So I wouldn't interpret that as "racism", but a peculiarity that is definitely an unnecessary part of the black experience. These kinds of things affect the group decision on whether a candidate passed the "culture fit", and a whole host of other things that ultimately prevent that qualified person from being around everyone else more, or getting into a position over them, simply because the people approving it are uncomfortable for meta reasons. So I think it is important for you to address that and notice it in others as well.

replies(1): >>qPM9l3+6j1
2. qPM9l3+6j1[view] [source] 2020-06-19 02:23:03
>>vmcept+(OP)
>You really don't have to feel like you are stepping on eggshells, even in your explanation here.

Thanks, that's reassuring.

>I would call that awkwardness you described as a microaggression because it is an experience that shouldn't be a part of my daily experience, and it shouldn't be something you have to worry about, but in this case it would come from you towards me.

I agree that it isn't fair to you, and that causes me to develop meta-OCD about it, lol. I feel kinda bad even writing these comments, because I don't wanna be in a position where I'm unfairly making it into your problem to an even greater degree.

You can call it a microaggression if you like, but I think that will make the problem worse on my end, because I'll obsess over it even more. I read a self-help book by a psychologist on this OCD stuff, and one of the things it mentioned is that it is helpful for other people to make light of your condition, even cracking jokes about it. If they act really concerned, that ends up validating the compulsive behavior, according to the author.

My secret wish would be to make a deal with the black people I meet that they will agree to privately bring it up with me if they feel I'm actually being racist so we can have a (hopefully two-way) discussion about that, and then knowing that I trust them to do that, that might help me relax and not worry as much. I think a big part of the problem is the fear that I'm being racist without knowing it. Of course, privately confronting people about their racism may not always be the optimal strategy. But it could be an interesting experiment to offer to make that deal, if you sense the other person would want it.

The reason I think it's better for the discussion to be two-way is because like a lot of engineers, I also have something of a compulsive need for the world to make sense and be a logical place. So if you were to tell me that I said X racist thing, but I don't initially see how it was racist, I feel a need to understand the root of our disagreement the same way I try to understand why there's a bug in a program. If I don't feel like I can do that, then that comes back to the original thing of me not feeling like I can be my authentic self. We don't necessarily need to see eye-to-eye on everything, but in an ideal world I'd like to get to the point where whatever disagreements remain are ones where you find my authentic opinion on the subject to be tolerable.

>These kinds of things affect the group decision on whether a candidate passed the "culture fit"

For what it's worth, back when my company was hiring a lot, I was very conscious of this kinda thing. I'm almost certain I ended up giving women and underrepresented minorities higher culture fit ratings overall. Partially because I wanted to account for any biases on my end, but it also gives me warm fuzzy feelings to have an (almost always positive) recruiting interaction with someone when there is so much BS on the internet saying that it should be hard for us to get along due to demographic characteristics. As cheesy as it may sound, at the end of the day we are all human beings, and if we can just see that in each other, I think it goes a long way. And once I've gotten past this kinda stuff with someone, it frequently forms the basis for a great friendship, in my experience.

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This is more of a side note, but as I was writing the above it occurred to me that in some cases there might be a useful analogy to be made between racism and mental illness. The traditional view of mental illness has been that if you suffered from some kind of mental illness, that represented a moral defect, and it was your responsibility to suck it up and do better. But recently there has been a more progressive view of mental illness that says we should treat mental illness as a disease just like any other disease, making use of evidence-based treatments, and only frame it as a moral defect if this framing has been shown to be an effective evidence-based treatment. (I don't know if moralizing actually ever ends up being an effective treatment--the one thing that comes to mind is Alcoholics Anonymous for addiction, but I don't know how evidence-based it is.) In any case, it might be useful / productive to separate out the question of whether racism is morally acceptable from the question of whether framing it as a moral defect will be a productive treatment for a particular person or situation. This is probably very person / situation-dependent, but as I tried to communicate above, at least for me, I suspect this kinda "moral defect" framing, especially when applied forcefully, can sometimes make the problem worse.

replies(1): >>vmcept+lD1
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3. vmcept+lD1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-19 06:34:34
>>qPM9l3+6j1
These are good points, I really want to break down everything one by one here, but you identified the root of it which is that people don't want to be treated differently. Black people, like everyone in America, want to exchange time for food and shelter, accumulate wealth and resources, contribute to the growth of the infrastructure.

The only reason you should be concerned that you have to patch your behavior is because your normal banter with friends includes insensitive stuff! If there is a genuine interest in being actively anti-racist, then call out your peers that want to bee-line conversations into frustrations about minorities. Or that are always looking for excuses to use the N word because it sounds cool (or trying to be actually racist). When - logic aside - you know normalizing that grammar would require constant patching around other people.

Another thing that underlies this code switching, for a lot of people, is an irrational fear of being beat up any black person in the vicinity, or even worse "cancelled". For the former, I consider that an entirely racist assumption, people don't want a record or a ruined day over some slip up in grammar or a troll. For the latter, try not to do it on twitter, you'll be fine.

So if you need to, you should consider patching your default conversational behavior so that you don't have to patch it around black people. If you don't need to that, then just assume it's all in your head, just like I assume its all in my head when different mormons are being awkward to me specifically despite knowing what their religion teaches about people of color. Everyone is just trying to go about their day without wondering why anyone is being awkward around them exclusively.

replies(1): >>qPM9l3+L22
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4. qPM9l3+L22[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-19 11:16:30
>>vmcept+lD1
>Black people, like everyone in America, want to exchange time for food and shelter, accumulate wealth and resources, contribute to the growth of the infrastructure.

Right on.

As to the rest... I don't use the n word and I can't remember the last time I heard a friend of mine use it (if they ever have). I'm not afraid of being beat up by black people--certainly not in a professional context! And yes, I'm aware that in-person interactions are much less likely to result in cancellation haha. So I guess I'll take your advice of just assuming that it's in my head. It usually goes away when I spend enough time around someone regardless.

Anyway, take it easy.

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