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1. evryda+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-17 12:03:23
> Are they unconsciously racist or are they just following experience-based heuristics?

Both! Today's discussion about racism isn't (mainly) about critiquing the motivations in peoples' deepest heart. It's about acknowledging that the outcomes of this kind of assumption can be racist, regardless of whether any harm was intended.

The person who is assumed to be subordinate, or less educated, or more prone to criminality will be given fewer opportunities. Society will systematically fail to recognize and utilize their talents, and can ultimately do them great harm through neglect - even if the individuals involved were "just following experience-based heuristics".

Acknowledging your potential to participate in racism doesn't mean admitting you have a cartoonish hatred. It means recognizing that it requires a proactive effort to keep assumptions from becoming self perpetuating in harmful ways.

replies(2): >>buran7+3f >>the_om+Qw3
2. buran7+3f[view] [source] 2020-06-17 13:47:49
>>evryda+(OP)
In general people who never suffered from this kind of profiling have a hard time understanding what's the problem. "I just called him a rapper". No, you just profiled someone who is sick and tired of being profiled. So the examples meant to convey the message better have to be a bit exaggerated.

Imagine calling every white, bald guy "a neo-nazi". A reasonable person who just didn't get the problem suddenly finds the heuristics explanation as no longer appropriate. An unreasonable person probably doesn't want to understand anyway so any effort is wasted on them.

replies(1): >>read_i+VH
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3. read_i+VH[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-17 16:14:03
>>buran7+3f
> In general people who never suffered from this kind of profiling have a hard time understanding what's the problem

I'm assuming you're directing this towards me since you mentioned my example. I am myself a minority. Do you realize that you just racially profiled me based on my opinion?

replies(1): >>buran7+B23
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4. buran7+B23[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-18 11:33:11
>>read_i+VH
> you just racially profiled me based on my opinion

This argument makes no sense. I based my words on your statement not your person and it wasn't even addressed to you. I picked up your argument and from personal experience explained why those people that you described see it like that. Making a very wobbly assumption based on criteria that puts one in a protected group is profiling and it gets old when you keep hearing it again and again. Moreover the same reasoning can lead to far more offensive conclusions then calling someone a rapper.

I never mentioned your race and it would make no difference to the argument: a black person in Africa will have just as little experience being profiled as a white person in the US. My "prejudice" wasn't towards you but towards the people who think making such assumptions is normal. Pulling this absurd "you racially profiled me based on my opinion" card now suggests to me that minority or not perhaps you also do not understand the real issue.

I would have thought that people who suffered this kind of profiling understand why it's a problem and actively steer away from doing it or even condoning it without the need for further explanation. And I get it that some are doing it without realizing it's a problem. I'm not assuming bad faith, just lack of understanding.

replies(1): >>read_i+xU3
5. the_om+Qw3[view] [source] 2020-06-18 15:24:09
>>evryda+(OP)
> Today's discussion about racism isn't (mainly) about critiquing the motivations in peoples' deepest heart. It's about acknowledging that the outcomes of this kind of assumption can be racist, regardless of whether any harm was intended.

Words have meaning. If an act wasn't done with a racist motive then it isn't racist. As the previous commenter said, it's just heuristics : they can be more or less in tune with reality. The only way to make someone change his heuristics is when reality and his map of reality become too different from one another.

> Acknowledging your potential to participate in racism doesn't mean admitting you have a cartoonish hatred. It means recognizing that it requires a proactive effort to keep assumptions from becoming self perpetuating in harmful ways.

So now people have to go against an evolutive and efficient process that enables them to not spend 1h thinking about how to behave in front of a lion or a boss ? The self-perpetuation will stop by itself when people's experience will change.

With such wishful thinking are you conscious you could then ask people to believe anything you want, regardless of reality?

replies(1): >>evryda+Fr5
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6. read_i+xU3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-18 17:30:03
>>buran7+B23
You were imlplying people who "don't understand the problem" (as in, they share my opinion) are generally lacking certain experiences, which is fundamentally nothing different than profiling them based on superficial attributes, which is exactly what's being criticised.

I'm not taking issue with you doing that, I was just aiming to illustrate the fact that everyone does this constantly. It's easier than thinking - it saves energy, we evolved to do it. It'll be hard to get rid of this and therefore maybe shouldn't be in the focus as much as it is.

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7. evryda+Fr5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-19 05:33:50
>>the_om+Qw3
Most of this thread - and the entire concept of "systemic racism" - is about outcomes that impact minorities, not about what drives specific individuals to stereotype.

For what it's worth, I agree that people shouldn't be villified for having evolved heuristics. Many people who care about - and especially many that have been directly harmed by - systemic racism are extremely realistic about how common these heuristics are. But, once you are aware that some of your heuristics harm others, you do have a revealing choice to make.

People go against evolved heuristics all. the. time. Often to make society work, which is itself an evolved impulse. Our layers of evolved reasoning are in constant conflict. Should I eat this thing that's tasty or impress that potential mate? Should I stay home and lie on the couch or keep my job and the respect of my family? Should I punch the guy who cut me off or stay out of jail? It's disingenuous to say, "I manage all of those things, but I'm helpless about my assumptions based on race."

We talk about things like anger management and racism in order to develop new heuristics that let us thrive together efficiently. You don't have to suppress your internal guess about whether someone is a rapper if you learn to invite people to introduce themselves. You can invest in confronting your biases in high stakes situations like performance reviews and project assignments, when you should be engaging your cognition anyway.

> The self-perpetuation will stop by itself when people's experience change.

This is a literally saying "the beatings will continue until morale improves". What makes it self perpetuating is that people can't disprove stereotypes with a boot on their neck.

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