zlacker

[parent] [thread] 45 comments
1. yingw7+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-11 13:16:05
I wonder if it's bigger than Sealand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand

When I look at the list of demands I'm pretty quick to dismiss it. Then I remember how I dismissed the 1999 WTO protests in Seattle too, and how many of the fears those protesters had were realized over the next two decades. I might be too hopeful, but I really think the city leadership should talk to them and hear them out, instead of just trying to push them over.

replies(4): >>kf+j >>ncalla+b5 >>rayine+I8 >>harryh+dF
2. kf+j[view] [source] 2020-06-11 13:17:11
>>yingw7+(OP)
The city is already cooperating and providing portable toilets and tried to replace the barricades with nice planters. It’s a national conversation now.
3. ncalla+b5[view] [source] 2020-06-11 13:47:10
>>yingw7+(OP)
The list of demands came from an open mic discussion. They let anyone come up and suggest a demand.

Someonen transcribed those demands and then posted them.

I think it would be better to view those demands as the union of demands of each person willing to speak to a crowd. Which is why you see inconsistency in then, why it's such a long list, etc.

I just think that list of demands is better understood in that context.

replies(1): >>tomsch+p5
◧◩
4. tomsch+p5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 13:48:53
>>ncalla+b5
Its not a list of demands if it's ridiculous and can't be realistically filled. At that point its just a list of wishes.
replies(4): >>floren+06 >>ncalla+sk >>pnako+ew1 >>vangel+mR1
◧◩◪
5. floren+06[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 13:51:21
>>tomsch+p5
Rather reminds me of the demands that used to come out when students would occupy a university building back in the 60s, where they'd demand that the president of Cowtown College get the US out of Vietnam immediately
6. rayine+I8[view] [source] 2020-06-11 14:07:30
>>yingw7+(OP)
The list of demands is extremely tame for a fricking anarchist commune. Look at the list of "economic demands." The biggest ask is de-gentrification and rent control.
replies(2): >>maland+Uv1 >>mmcgah+KE1
◧◩◪
7. ncalla+sk[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 15:16:17
>>tomsch+p5
Okay. You can semantically call it whatever you want!

I'm just trying to give some additional context to how this list of (demands|wishes) came about.

If you view it as a single list of (demands|wishes) it doesn't make as much sense. If you view it as the (demands|wishes) from a wide variety of people, that were made on an open mic at a protest that was transcribed, then categorized, then posted to the internet, it's easier to understand what it is.

There are organized protest leaders that have curated their list of demands and put it out. This very much isn't that! This is basically the raw list of demands from a wide variety of different speakers. The only editing was in the transcription and the categorization of those demands.

8. harryh+dF[view] [source] 2020-06-11 17:18:42
>>yingw7+(OP)
many of the fears those protesters had were realized over the next two decades

Is there a list of these fears somewhere? Ideally as presented at the time.

replies(3): >>kasey_+881 >>0x262d+Mw1 >>hedora+BO1
◧◩
9. kasey_+881[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 20:06:12
>>harryh+dF
It’s hard to enumerate the list as if it were some soviet collective document because one of the interesting parts of the wto protests were how decentralized they were. In that they were thoroughly modern.

But 2 issues that stand out as prescient are the environmental impact of an ascendant China and the changes to the US middle class globalization would render.

◧◩
10. maland+Uv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 23:30:07
>>rayine+I8
Those asks seem pretty incompatible with property law and the legislative process. You can't just unilaterally demand something like rent control and de-gentrification measures. The city government shouldn't even have (and probably doesn't have) the power to meet such demands.
replies(3): >>dragon+yA1 >>ian-g+PC1 >>thrwaw+wT3
◧◩◪
11. pnako+ew1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 23:32:07
>>tomsch+p5
Maybe those protesters are all sales guys or product managers.
◧◩
12. 0x262d+Mw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 23:37:20
>>harryh+dF
well, globalization on neoliberal terms has continued to hollow out living standards in advanced countries while turning neocolonial countries into large sweatshops. the life expectancy in the US has fallen for 2 or 3 years in a row now largely as a downstream result of this. that is my understanding of one major concern from that.
replies(2): >>throwa+0N1 >>refurb+nR1
◧◩◪
13. dragon+yA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 00:10:49
>>maland+Uv1
Degentrification could trivially be achieved by eminent domain, condemning existing residential property for public housing for which eligibility would be governed on rules which are incompatible with gentrification. It might be expensive, even prohibitively so, to do on a broad scale, but in terms of legal authority it's well within the scope of powers that local governments usually have.

Note that rent control, even if the city doesn't have the power to establish it for private rentals, can effectively be achieved by the same means.

replies(2): >>hedora+mL1 >>throwa+uM1
◧◩◪
14. ian-g+PC1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 00:32:53
>>maland+Uv1
But they should try something. Maybe degentrification could include a city requirement not to displace people when building new housing. The developer puts the previous occupant up and then guarantees them their same rent for, say, a decade going forward
replies(1): >>hedora+EM1
◧◩
15. mmcgah+KE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 00:52:58
>>rayine+I8
defunding police pensions is a bit much.
replies(3): >>millzl+eK1 >>deathg+1L1 >>hedora+5L1
◧◩◪
16. millzl+eK1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 01:51:42
>>mmcgah+KE1
True, but we can start using them for court settlements instead of taxpayer money.
◧◩◪
17. deathg+1L1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 02:01:24
>>mmcgah+KE1
Don't you think qualified immunity is a bit much? Take the pensions and subtract the money that would have been awarded in lawsuits and it probably evens out to $0.
replies(1): >>AuryGl+6B3
◧◩◪
18. hedora+5L1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 02:01:52
>>mmcgah+KE1
I’d rather see a blanket ban on defunding any pensions (public or private).
◧◩◪◨
19. hedora+mL1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 02:05:18
>>dragon+yA1
There is legal precedent to use imminent domain to transfer wealth from one individual to another. Usually it’s stealing from the poor, and giving to real estate developers.

There’d be a certain amount of deferred justice in doing that, but I’d rather the practice simply be banned.

◧◩◪◨
20. throwa+uM1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 02:19:34
>>dragon+yA1
IANAL but I’m pretty sure it’s illegal to use eminent domain to confiscate the homes of citizens based on their race. The law doesn’t make provisions for unpopular races as far as I know.
replies(2): >>salawa+nW1 >>dragon+lx2
◧◩◪◨
21. hedora+EM1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 02:21:43
>>ian-g+PC1
The problem with imposing restrictions on real estate developers is that it reduces the amount of housing, which increases the cost. (Look at California, for example.)

I’d rather they force commercial developers to put in two bedrooms worth of housing for each full time employee worth of office space they add.

If the developers are short-sighted and only add high end McMansions and condos, that’s fine.

The housing market will eventually oversaturate, and those properties will end up selling at a loss to people that couldn’t afford them at the original price.

The Microsofts and Amazons of the world will end up paying eye watering premiums for open space floor plans, or luxury real estate developers will take a bath. Either way, not a tear will be shed.

replies(2): >>jessau+sT1 >>ian-g+UZ1
◧◩◪
22. throwa+0N1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 02:26:42
>>0x262d+Mw1
What does “neoliberal” mean in this context?
replies(2): >>hedora+sR1 >>0x262d+Sm3
◧◩
23. hedora+BO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 02:41:41
>>harryh+dF
The definitive write up of their fears is in the book “Has Globalization Gone too Far?” by Dani Rodrick (1997).

It was not well received at the time, but sadly, it’s predictions have been proven correct over time.

Here’s a contemporary negative review of the book with a point by point refutation of its contents (it is painful to read with the benefit of hindsight): https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewconten...

Here’s a chronology of related protests, ending in Trump. You could read up on the individual events, I suppose:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trade-nafta-timeline-idUS...

◧◩◪
24. vangel+mR1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 03:11:03
>>tomsch+p5
Actually, it feels very democratic. Everyone has their say, but not everyone is going to be fulfilled.
◧◩◪
25. refurb+nR1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 03:11:36
>>0x262d+Mw1
Globalization has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty in China.
replies(2): >>lambda+CZ1 >>0x262d+Wl3
◧◩◪◨
26. hedora+sR1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 03:12:14
>>throwa+0N1
I think of neoliberalism and neoconservativism as offshoots of corporatism, which is the idea that government can most efficiently serve the people by protecting the interests of corporations above all else.

This leads to the idea that regulatory capture is economically efficient (“Who is better qualified to regulate industry than successful industrialists?”)

It also leads to things like banning class action law suits, allowing binding arbitration, and allowing individuals to sign away arbitrary rights by implicitly accepting non-negotiated contracts they haven’t even seen.

Oakland has commercial enforcement zones, where private police enforce the law. The idea is that business owners weren’t getting a good deal by paying taxes to fund the police, because it was subsidizing law enforcement in residential areas. Instead, the merchants hire their own police, and pay less taxes. Oakland’s (mostly poor, black) residents fund the police that protect them out of their own taxes.

Anyway, you get the idea. Back to your question:

Neoconservatives generally think corporatism is best achieved by dismantling the government (“repeal Obamacare”).

Neoliberals think it is best achieved by restructuring it (mandate health insurance for all).

(Contrast that with the populists in that debate. They want to dismantle the health insurance industry and replace it with medicare.)

Usually, when people talk about moderates in the US, they mean corporatists. The MAGA crowd are mostly “right wing” populists (xenophobic, “America first”, bring back factory jobs), the BLM types tend to be “left wing” populists.

If you look up corporatism, you’ll see it is a shortened form of “corporate fascism”. I don’t think that term is particularly constructive, though it is accurate: the MAGA and BLM movements both accuse the establishment of being fascist.

One side targets neoliberals, the other, neocons. As General Mattis pointed out last week, divided we fall.

replies(2): >>jessau+0U1 >>wahern+xZ1
◧◩◪◨⬒
27. jessau+sT1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 03:33:54
>>hedora+EM1
Your proposal is merely a preference for housing over commercial space. Presumably you have your reasons, but if covid sticks around a few more months (which it is certain to do) commercial space might be rented like crude oil: landlords paying tenants! We'll soon see office/retail space converted to expensive housing even without this aggressive intervention. Everyone is working from home now.
◧◩◪◨⬒
28. jessau+0U1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 03:40:26
>>hedora+sR1
Please don't quote that reptile. Of all the reasons to resign from the currently-reigning administration, he chose the fact that Trump had decided to stop killing Syrian children. Not a good look. If the war media is refocusing its attention on him, we can expect he'll be pimping more atrocities real soon. After all the public must be distracted from its current concerns, otherwise we might spend some money on something besides armaments and prisons.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/20/politics/james-mattis-resigna...

replies(1): >>hedora+626
◧◩◪◨⬒
29. salawa+nW1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 04:13:26
>>throwa+uM1
Further, any use of eminent domain must be bundled with fair market value compensation for the value of the property being acquired.
◧◩◪◨⬒
30. wahern+xZ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 04:50:09
>>hedora+sR1
The label neoconservative primarily concerns a niche political movement in foreign affairs and defense. It was largely a small group of highly influential Washington insiders who spent most of their careers at the Defense Department, State Department, and CIA. Ideologically they were realists, but mostly in the context of foreign affairs. In terms of domestic policy they were all over the board, though they were often typically described as socially liberal (i.e. no anti-abortion activists). Discussing their domestic policy preferences is a little non-sensical because they didn't really care about domestic policy. Most of them were Republican, many of their financial backers were Democratic, but the party affiliations were mostly irrelevant except that in terms of appointments their power flowed primarily through Republican administrations.

Well known neoconservatives include Jeane Kirkpatrick, Jim Woolsey, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, and others. Outside of government, almost to a person they all circulated among a small group of think tanks and lobbying organizations in Washington, DC, one of which I used to work at while in college, and I watched every one of the aforementioned, and many more, come in and out of the office at various times.

I also think discussing the domestic policy principles of neoliberals is a little non-sensical. Neoliberalism, IMO, is best described as a manifest consequence of the rightward shift in Western politics from the late 1970s to the present time. After Margaret Thatcher's win in the U.K., liberals became increasingly disfavored by the electorate across the West. Neoliberals are politicians who recognized that conservatives controlled the narrative--small government, fewer regulations, pro-business, etc--and ran on political platforms that reflected that shift.[1] Ideologically they almost all supported traditional liberal policies--social, economic, etc--but understood you couldn't actually win national elections on those same platforms any longer. IOW, neoliberalism isn't an ideology, it's natural selection.

Liberals today love to sh_t on Bill Clinton and Tony Blair for rolling back the social safety net, increasing police enforcement, etc. But they have amnesia.[1] The alternatives to Clinton and Blair weren't more liberal policies, they were continuing conservative electoral wins. People forget that two years into Clinton's presidency the GOP won the House and Senate for the first time in ~50 years, and that Clinton lost to Bush not because the electorate was more liberal, but because Bush wasn't conservative enough.

It's amazing that even after Trump's election and even after Brexit liberals are still under the delusion that more liberal policies can win elections. It doesn't matter that individual voters' particular preferences skew liberal; when you package them all up into a platform the controlling political narrative is that they represent big government, and big government is bad. Full stop. And what's the alternative to big government? Whatever it is, it will tend to benefit large corporations because the collective action problem doesn't go away, and the next largest organizations that are capable of marshaling a huge amount of human and monetary resources will fill in the vacuum left by a receding government.

Going forward I don't know what will happen. With the rise of populism any kind of coherent platform, principled or opportunistic, seems unnecessary and irrelevant. We do seem to be at an inflection point, but only time will tell.

[1] I'm sure younger people today might say, "how could you possibly support anything other than smaller government, ceteris paribus." I'm not so old as to be able to tell you first-hand how older generations thought, but as I understand it, it wasn't that you preferred bigger government, it's just that you didn't concern yourself much with where a policy sat on the big government/small government axis. Issues were contextualized differently. Conservatives took control of the narrative by recontextualizing the issues and changing the metrics by which people judged the appropriateness and viability of policies. They were so successful that most people today across the political spectrum have completely internalized that shift. Not just in the U.S., but globally. How did they do it globally? Because their recontextualization didn't happen in a vacuum. Few would call Deng Xiaoping a neoliberal (or Mahathir Mohamad, or many others Asian leaders through the succeeding decades), but clearly an appreciation for market-based policies was an emerging global phenomenon. But it was U.K. and U.S. conservatives in particular (though not necessarily exclusively) who built a political narrative around that shift and provided examples of how to leverage it in democratic societies so that popular support for, e.g., privatization gathered momentum independent of the actual benefits, promoting the disintegration of institutions that didn't benefit from a diminished governmental role.

◧◩◪◨
31. lambda+CZ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 04:50:43
>>refurb+nR1
Because they're the only ones really not playing by the neoliberal rules.

I mean look, whatever people in capitalist circles want to believe, China never really gave up on communism. They repurposed capitalism's weighing machine, and with that, there were people who got rich, which makes it look like Western-style capitalism. But the whole point of the "shadow banking system" and "state-owned enterprise" was to encapsulate a party-run state-driven "communist" system, to ensure reasonably ample work for the workers, and, to ensure a backstop to private enterprise. Maybe it's somewhat like the way Apple has baseline apps that are good enough, and then an app store for everything else. Or another analogy would be the U.S. Postal Service. Not efficient, but it works.

To be clear, globalization has been quite predatory towards weaker developing countries with less centralized authority – and hence – bargaining power. China "won" globalization by subverting it, and indeed, in hindsight, this was the only way for a developing country to win.

◧◩◪◨⬒
32. ian-g+UZ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 04:54:47
>>hedora+EM1
That's fair. I'd be ok with forcing two bedrooms of housing for each worker space added.

I don't think all the McMansions and condos are good however. I'd rather you force people to add space for lots of people. Otherwise there'll be a period where you drive a lot of poorer folks away. Artists and retail workers and mechanics. People who don't work tech or finance or real estate. I don't know that cities can readily recover from it.

It's why I left San Jose. If it continues too long, it'll be why I leave Seattle. Give people reasonable rents, please. I want to live with artists and civil servants and retail workers and chefs and vets and all these people. It makes life so much more interesting

◧◩◪◨⬒
33. dragon+lx2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 11:42:28
>>throwa+uM1
> IANAL but I’m pretty sure it’s illegal to use eminent domain to confiscate the homes of citizens based on their race

Good thing I never suggested that. Gentrification has a racial dimension because race correlates with economics, but it simply is the rich displacing the poor in a particular region; if you take housing units by eminent domain and establish a process for renting them out as public housing that doesn't distribute them to the highest bidder, you prevent gentrification. You neither have to acquire nor distribute based on race.

replies(2): >>throwa+OX2 >>maland+FOa
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
34. throwa+OX2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 14:59:16
>>dragon+lx2
I figured you would take that tack. In my defense, the term often does refer to whites specifically. In either case, however, I'm of the impression that a law may not disproportionately target one race or another (it's insufficient to show that a law doesn't explicitly target one race; it must also be shown that it doesn't cause disproportionate harm to one race), but again, IANAL and would be very interested in hearing from an expert (even suggestions on search criteria would be helpful).
replies(1): >>dragon+Eh3
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
35. dragon+Eh3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 16:51:55
>>throwa+OX2
> I'm of the impression that a law may not disproportionately target one race or another (it's insufficient to show that a law doesn't explicitly target one race; it must also be shown that it doesn't cause disproportionate harm to one race),

You are incorrect. Laws may both explicitly (or otherwise intentionally) target race and may disproportionately impact race without explicit targeting.

Laws doing the former are subject to “strict scrutiny”: the discrimination must be the least invasive means of achieving a compelling government interest. The latter isn't prohibited at all, though it can be evidence of discriminatory intent. (You may be thinking of employment law, where disparate impact is generally prohibited discrimination, unless closely tailored to a specific legitimate non-discriminatory business need.)

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause for a discussion, especially the section under “tiered scrutiny” and “disparate impact”.

replies(1): >>throwa+zi3
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
36. throwa+zi3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 16:55:43
>>dragon+Eh3
Interesting and disappointing. Thanks for the correction.
◧◩◪◨
37. 0x262d+Wl3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 17:13:04
>>refurb+nR1
China industrialized on the basis of incredibly terrible working conditions (ie high profitability via low wages) that have only recently been improving. And as they've improved, globalization has shifted manufacturing to other countries who have worse working conditions again. "Lifted out of poverty" sounds nice but tends to mostly mean that people who were formerly peasants have instead worked in sweatshops and horrible factories for decades or centuries. It's easy to view that as all well and good if you are happily working in the global labor aristocracy, but it's not actually fair.
replies(1): >>refurb+FC3
◧◩◪◨
38. 0x262d+Sm3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 17:17:47
>>throwa+0N1
Liberalism was originally the abolition of feudal restrictions on free trade and wage labor. Neoliberalism is the removal of various newer restrictions on that, including: social-democratic laws that protect workers and raise the standard of living, and protective trade laws that protect countries' local industries (large industry in poor manufacturing countries, for instance, or small farmers like in Mexico, who have been wiped out by US agriculture).

China and the US have recently taken an anti-neoliberal turn, in fact the neoliberal era is beginning to end. Both Trump and Jinping have been pretty protectionist.

◧◩◪◨
39. AuryGl+6B3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 18:43:00
>>deathg+1L1
Retroactively taking retirement funds from people that were expecting them is wrong. Even if 99% of the police deserved it, it would still be wrong.
replies(1): >>loeg+WC4
◧◩◪◨⬒
40. refurb+FC3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 18:52:30
>>0x262d+Wl3
"Lifted out of poverty" sounds nice but tends to mostly mean that people who were formerly peasants have instead worked in sweatshops and horrible factories for decades or centuries.

Right, so lifted out of poverty. Just because you think their new job is a "horrible sweatshop", doesn't mean their lives haven't actually improved.

replies(1): >>0x262d+ST4
◧◩◪
41. thrwaw+wT3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 20:21:11
>>maland+Uv1
No one owns any property. They are rented property by the society and a functioning government.

As such, it's totally right to take and redistribute things that doesn't belong to rich people only.

◧◩◪◨⬒
42. loeg+WC4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-13 02:43:08
>>AuryGl+6B3
Ah, so maybe teargassing the 1 "innocent" person in a crowd of 99 "rowdy" protesters is wrong?

Police believe in collective punishment. So deliver it to them.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
43. 0x262d+ST4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-13 06:34:10
>>refurb+FC3
You're mistaken about the standard of living of peasants vs superexploited wage laborers, and doing that smug "the thing that worked super well for me must have worked for those guys no matter how bad off they seem" thing.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
44. hedora+626[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-13 18:49:31
>>jessau+0U1
I’m mot a huge fan of him, and am extremely anti-war.

However, the US’s withdrawal from Syria is a continuing humanitarian disaster that has spread into neighboring countries.

replies(1): >>jessau+naa
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
45. jessau+naa[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 14:17:15
>>hedora+626
We don't destroy nations by leaving them (which we haven't done in Syria's case; there are still USA troops fighting there [0]), we destroy them by occupying and slaughtering in the first place. Keep in mind that the "gas attacks" were staged false-flag this-is-how-all-our-wars-start bullshit, which overruled-from-top OPCW investigations made clear. [1] Calling oneself "extremely anti-war" while parroting military-industrial complex submarine interventionist propaganda is fairly ridiculous. Killing more children in Syria wouldn't have saved the lives of Syrian children.

[0] https://thegrayzone.com/2019/11/07/max-blumenthal-on-baghdad...

[1] https://thegrayzone.com/2020/04/28/opcw-insiders-ltamenah-ch...

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
46. maland+FOa[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 17:22:57
>>dragon+lx2
> establish a process for renting them out as public housing

and the process for renting them as public housing will be fairer how? You're just switching out one filtering system (price) for another based on arbitrary rules proposed by petty bureaucrats and politicians. At the end of the day you're still discriminating. The only difference that in your system, you're hoping that you or someone with your sensibilities has the power to do the discriminating.

[go to top]