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ACLU sues Minnesota for police violence against the press

submitted by sorami+(OP) on 2020-06-03 18:24:30 | 758 points 235 comments
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2. c0nsum+j5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 18:50:00
>>Doofus+15
Yes. Read the filing here: https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/goyette-v-city-minneapol...
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4. csnove+b9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 19:11:30
>>c0nsum+j5
For anyone who doesn’t want to read the legal complaint, the named class action plaintiff (Jared Goyette) was shot in the face by the police with a “less lethal” round[0] and nearly permanently lost his eyesight[1] after he had just finished reporting on a man who had been shot in the head by the police with a “less lethal” round.[2]

[0] https://twitter.com/JaredGoyette/status/1265786797650558976

[1] https://twitter.com/JaredGoyette/status/1266115234420400129

[2] https://twitter.com/JaredGoyette/status/1265779746153078793

5. jedber+8a[view] [source] 2020-06-03 19:16:32
>>sorami+(OP)
In case you agree and want to help with money:

https://action.aclu.org/give/now

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21. gpm+9k[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 20:14:08
>>jedber+xh
> The reason they have special protection is because the constitution grants them special protection.

I'm not a lawyer, but it doesn't

> There is no precedent supporting laws that attempt to distinguish between corporations which are deemed to be exempt as media corporations and those which are not. We have consistently rejected the proposition that the institutional press has any constitutional privilege beyond that of other speakers.

Supreme court in citizen's united, internal quotation marks omitted. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-205.pdf

> protections of the First Amendment do not turn on whether the defendant was a trained journalist, formally affiliated with traditional news entities, engaged in conflict-of-interest disclosure, went beyond just assembling others' writings, or tried to get both sides of a story.

9th circuit in Obsidian Finance Group, LLC v. Cox http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2014/01/17/12...

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30. bberen+cn[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 20:30:47
>>eric_b+Hl
I don't think disbanding a police force means what you think it means. Take a look at https://www.governing.com/topics/public-justice-safety/gov-c...

The goal is to wipe the slate clean and rebuild from the foundation.

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36. r00fus+6p[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 20:40:05
>>eric_b+Hl
> I am very glad I do not live in Minneapolis.

You know the protests are in all 50 states. Some of the flare-ups are due to responses to pent-up frustration from covid, but a lot are due to police riots/escalation. The rest of the protests are peaceful.

> But what are the second and third order effects of underfunded police departments?

Police departments, for many reasons, are the most over-funded [1]. NYPD went on strike and crime actually went down [2] for the month they didn't police.

The goal is not to "disband" but essentially rewrite the entire purpose of the department. Essentially put the policing function in receivership to be revived with new leadership.

[1] https://theappeal.org/spending-billions-on-policing-then-mil...

[2] https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proacti...

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44. gen220+or[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 20:50:21
>>vertex+Yn
As far as I understand it[1], the state and the federal government have the ability to prosecute police misconduct, and their incentives are aligned to crack down on the bad police officers.

The problem is that they are dramatically limited in the types of charges they can press against officers of the law (charges that carry big penalties, and have a very high burden of proof). This is anachronistically because we as a society have decided that officers deserve benefit of the doubt in the lack of compelling evidence. These days, many instances of misconduct are recorded, and the rules should change.

In Eric Garner's case, for example, the govt attorneys declined to press charges, because they lacked sufficient evidence that the officer was knowingly violating the rights of Eric Garner. The burden of proof for any kind of misconduct charge is currently so high, that even an egregious misconduct case like this passes by untouched.

If the attorneys general had a wider range of misconduct charges in their arsenal, they could raise the average cost of police misconduct, and it might improve the situation.

[1] recently informed by https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/pushkin-industries/deep-bac...

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56. zucker+Zt[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 21:02:25
>>cxr+rl
He didn't include ending qualified immunity under the list of things he thought have to change, even though it's one of the most important. Plus, all the things he included are social changes or executive policy changes rather than a specific legal change like ending qualified immunity. There are specific efforts to end qualified immunity [1], while his suggestions amount to "we need to change culture", which is completely true but not as actionable. It could be that he meant to include ending qualified immunity, but being specific doesn't hurt.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2020/06/03/new-bill... (direct source at https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/1267267244029083648)

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65. joshua+aw[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 21:13:45
>>stcred+zs
Social media platforms should also have that right. And in fact they do:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23408093

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77. bberen+Uy[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 21:27:50
>>eric_b+Pn
You can look into a history of similar activities across the world. The process of firing and rebuilding from scratch is the only one I know that has consistently worked. The ones that come to mind other than Camden is Northern Ireland [1] and Georgia (country)[2]. I believe there were a few other cases of this in the US, but I can't remember them off the top of my head.

The Norther Ireland article specifically covers a few of the reasons why this works.

Edit: I realized that I didn't respond to your question of whether this demonstrates an improvement in Camden. Citylab seems to think so, but offers a nuanced explanation of why this may not be the case and what other factors are at play [3]

[1] https://www.sipri.org/commentary/topical-backgrounder/2019/p... [2]https://www.centreforpublicimpact.org/case-study/siezing-mom... [3] https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crim...

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85. dharma+bB[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 21:41:37
>>anewdi+Xz
They were released quickly because the president of CNN was on the phone with the Governor of Minnesota within minutes.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/29/politics/tim-walz-minnesota-c...

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93. bcrosb+zC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 21:48:00
>>Camper+Fz
Policies like this have been adopted with support from the ACLU. Your flippantly dismissive attitude towards this view makes me think you aren't all that aware of why cities might have this policy:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/privacy-technology/surveillance-te...

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97. aspenm+rD[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 21:52:35
>>mehrda+nB
Here is the video of the CNN reporter arrest. I have included the description of the video below to help people find it:

A CNN reporter and crew have been arrested live on air while covering the Minneapolis protests over the killing of George Floyd.

Black correspondent Omar Jimenez had just shown a protester being arrested when about half a dozen white police officers surrounded him.

Mr Jimenez told the Minnesota State Patrol officers: “We can move back to where you like”, before explaining that he and his crew were members of the press, adding: “We’re getting out of your way.”

The journalist was handcuffed and led away alongside a producer and camera operator for CNN.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIClA57jWmQ&t=138s

accompanying story from same publication's site:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cnn-report...

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117. mehrda+qH[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:17:36
>>gpm+hF
But do you actually believe police didn't suspect there was a crime? The video doesn't suggest that to me at all. Like this other person wrote [1], it doesn't seem unlikely that they were ordered to disperse or something under some public safety law and refused. (Or, I guess, you could say the reporter just didn't hear it and missed the memo. Doesn't really change it from the officer's perspective though.)

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23409320

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120. epmats+QH[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:20:19
>>jedber+8a
For those of us here who receive stock compensation, you can donate that directly too! If the stock has long term capital gains, the tax savings can let you donate even more.

https://www.aclu.org/gifts-stock

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121. mehrda+bI[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:22:08
>>petroc+vH
> Press implies covering events and publishing about them.

I don't think it implies that covering events has some kind of immunity. It's still subject to any general restriction on the assembly. The government can impose restrictions on the time, place, and manner of peaceful assembly, provided that constitutional safeguards are met. See https://www.loc.gov/law/help/peaceful-assembly/us.php

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135. smiley+xN[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:51:59
>>cabaal+oF
Beyond the first amendment is the 4th estate doctrine, origin ating from British concepts.

While less legally defensible it is much of the reason why the BBC, FCC exist, why we have camera crews embed with troops.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate

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137. testbo+2O[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:55:07
>>eric_b+So
I don't think they're advocating for disbanding the department completely (from the article):

> I don’t know yet, though several of us on the council are working on finding out, what it would take to disband the MPD and start fresh with a community-oriented, non-violent public safety and outreach capacity.

It takes a lot of investment in the community, but it works: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crim...

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143. gpm+HP[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 23:03:09
>>mehrda+hN
30 seconds in this clip of the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftLzQefpBvM

I remembered this as being stated too the cops much clearer than it actually was. Likely I was mixing what they said with what the CNN reporters said later on when they were replaying this clip.

162. r0m4n0+Q51[view] [source] 2020-06-04 00:53:18
>>sorami+(OP)
We are well past the point of being capable of recording all police interactions with video. If every police officer was forced to record all activity with body cams (that would be made public through some process) we could scrutinize and hold every interaction accountable by the laws that already exist. That wouldn’t solve everything immediately but I think over time every action would take place as if there was public oversight.

Even during these protests we have instances of people being shot by the police and conflicted recollections from both sides of the events that took place.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/03/david-...

Record everything and hold everyone accountable for their own actions.

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173. greyfa+de1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-04 02:14:11
>>myself+LI
When you donate through a donor-advised fund[1], you have the option to make the donation anonymous to the recipient organization (but presumably not to financial surveillance systems and the IRS). Caveats: this only works for 501(c)(3) organizations, and DAFs often have donation minimums.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donor-advised_fund

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177. a_pupp+Of1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-04 02:29:18
>>smiley+tP
> we have a police and prison system designed with illegal marijuana; that could shrink to 1/8th of it's size with relatively few changes in laws (drug law repeal, mandatory minimums, crime act)

Really?

Only about 18% of current prisoners (state and federal) are serving time for drug offenses. [1]

Of federal prisoners serving time for drug offenses, only 12% are primarily about marijuana. (54% are cocaine and 24% are meth.) [2]

Only 14% of federal offenders were subject to a mandatory minimum sentence. (About half of those were drug offenses, so this overlaps heavily with the 18% figure above.) [3]

No realistic minor changes could reduce the prison system to 1/8 of its size. 51% of prisoners are serving time for violent offenses. In fact, 14% of prisoners are serving time for homicide alone, and a similar number for rape. [4] So if you decriminalized _every_ crime except homicide and rape, and cut the sentences for homicide and rape in _half_, then the prison system would be 1/8 of its current size.

I am optimistic that the USA could eventually, in the very long term, reduce the prison system to 1/8 of its size. Fifty years ago, the prison system was 1/4 its current size. [5] Most western European countries have between 1/8 and 1/4 the US incarceration rate, and a few have below 1/8. [6] But this will require way, way, way bigger societal changes than just marijuana decriminalization or other minor tweaks.

[1] Source is https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=6846. Of the 1.274M state prisoners, 14% are serving time for drug offenses. Of the 162k federal prisoners, 47% are serving time for drug offenses.

[2] Source is https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/dofp12.pdf. Caveat: this is federal-only, and federal prison statistics are often different from state prison statistics.

[3] Source is https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-pu.... Caveat: this is federal-only, and federal prison statistics are often different from state prison statistics.

[4] Source is https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=6846 again. Of the 1.274M state prisoners, 56% are serving time for violent offenses (16% for homicide). Of the 162k federal prisoners, 8% are serving time for violent offenses (2% for homicide).

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...

[6] https://www.statista.com/statistics/957501/incarceration-rat...

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185. dpeck+Qk1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-04 03:17:11
>>greyfa+de1
A friend of mine has a startup around something like a DAF for everyone. https://www.charityvest.org

I don't have any association with the company other than knowing the founders. No endorsement other than that they're good folks who want to help people have an easier time giving.

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189. dave7+Ml1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-04 03:26:06
>>falcri+oE
Clip of the scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwrSlzZC31w
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193. hnick+En1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-04 03:41:22
>>zucker+Wj
Qualified immunity is qualified, not absolute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity

"Qualified immunity is a legal doctrine in United States federal law that shields government officials from being sued for discretionary actions performed within their official capacity, unless their actions violated "clearly established" federal law or constitutional rights. Qualified immunity thus protects officials who "make reasonable but mistaken judgments about open legal questions", but does not protect "the plainly incompetent or those who knowingly violate the law"."

Is the bill of rights not "clearly established"? They've had long enough.

To me the phrasing seems clear, it's a lack of political will that's the issue. Not the law.

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207. kevan+6t1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-04 04:40:40
>>tgb+511
Heads up, ACLU donations are only tax deductible if you donate to the foundation side[1].

[1] https://action.aclu.org/give/make-tax-deductible-gift-aclu-f...

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210. rainco+ID1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-04 06:11:09
>>rayine+Vm1
In today's interview with Times, Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey said he doesn't have power to change police union contracts. So, something rotten out there. Best option for Minneapolis is to disband the police force just like Camden, NJ did. For more, check https://www.startribune.com/here-s-why-cops-can-t-be-held-ac...
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215. mellow+HW1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-04 09:04:47
>>tw0000+5w
https://www.youtube.com/embed/Byk2axDVNHE

These are the people you are defending.

> Where are news reports of protesters throwing rocks at riot police?

Yes, where are they? After all, you have to have this from somewhere. And after seeing the above scenes, keep in mind that this isn't two soccer teams who both have the same job. The police's job is to uphold the law, citizens don't have a job as such. They don't get paid to not break the law, they pay for the apparatus that punishes them if they break it (and let's too many cops go free when they do). The cops are armed, they get paid, they have special privileges to prevent such things, not to use them to do them.

Imagine a little child hitting an adult with all their force, and then the adult hitting back with all their force, and someone just saying "they're both being bad". Not that the cops are adults versus infants, but they do have levers and enjoy protections -- all paid for by the people they or their colleagues brutalize -- that multiply their force by many orders of magnitude.

217. dgzl+R72[view] [source] 2020-06-04 11:03:07
>>sorami+(OP)
I think people are missing a few big points.

1) It's extremely difficult being a cop

2) It's extremely terrifying being a cop

3) It's extremely unpopular being a cop

It boggles me every time I hear people say cops need "stricter requirements" and "less pay" but never hear anyone volunteering to join the force and make real change. Look around, how many white knights want to be a cop?

The videos from Thursday/Friday night Minneapolis shape my framework for these riots, not the supposed abuse to protesters and reporters. IMO, given the circumstances, the cops overall have been very civil while taking an onslaught of verbal and even physical abuse. And don't get me wrong, I'm not ignoring police abuse and brutality.

https://youtu.be/cHcELsLF7cg

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219. claudi+Qi2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-04 12:28:33
>>tristo+eF
>"Critical theory" isn't even a thing

Weird. I wonder why there's a Wikipedia article for something that's "not even a thing"[0].

> It's just a repackaging of Marxist ideals applied to other demographic groupings besides class, and it's just as easily disproven.

Can you cite a single critical theorist who simply transposes class analysis to "other demographic groupings"? The theorists I've read actually stray pretty far from the concept of class conflict, and they do not construct, for example, "gender conflict" or "race conflict" out of the "ideals" such as class conflict. Is there any evidence for your claim at all? Or are you claiming that any analysis of conflict between demographics is simply a repackaging of class conflict?

You fail to recognize the specificity of the idea of class conflict, and why it can't be "repackaged" as an abstraction. As an abstraction, all you're left with is "societal conflict", but nobody would deny that there is some conflict in society of some kind. The concepts of economic exploitation, alienation, historical and current primitive accumulation, base and superstructure, etc. are all core to class conflict analysis, but from what I've read, few if any of these are present in the literature on race and gender.

And while we're on the topic, can you point to which "easy disproofs" you're talking about as they relate to class conflict or "other demographic" conflicts? Ironically, the same critical theorists you claim "aren't a thing" were the same ones to argue against the traditional conception of class conflict (e.g. Marcuse).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory

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223. zucker+G73[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-04 16:44:30
>>hnick+En1
The standard of the Supreme Court has established for "clearly established" is very hard to meet. For most cases, there has to a prior court cases with facts that match closely with the case at hand. For example,

https://reason.com/2020/05/19/qualified-immunity-supreme-cou...

Plus, I've seen little textual basis for qualified immunity at all.

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228. selimt+VH3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-04 20:03:16
>>rayine+Vm1
Speaking of elected officials...

https://theappeal.org/ice-friendly-policies-a-string-of-jail...

“Sheriff candidates must have either an advanced certificate from the state’s Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training, or a certain combination of education and law enforcement experience. The law, enacted in 1988, was devised by a subcommittee of the California State Sheriffs’ Association. Before then, the only requirement was that a candidate be registered to vote in the county.”

Where were Deukmejian and Wilson when this was passed?

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