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[parent] [thread] 37 comments
1. bosswi+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-02 18:33:39
I had been heartened by the right's recent upswing in fierce support for the first amendment, but unfortunately I've seen little of that support during the protests as freedom of assembly and freedom of the press have been attacked. For example Rand Paul has not tweeted in a week. Sadly, as always, these kind of principled arguments, on both sides, are a sham to advance whatever the partisan battle of the week is.
replies(7): >>Loughl+W3 >>thepla+Y6 >>prudhv+Q9 >>ashton+bo >>rpiguy+Vy >>tomjak+yU >>panny+CA1
2. Loughl+W3[view] [source] 2020-06-02 18:48:21
>>bosswi+(OP)
I honestly wish there was anyone in Washington who seemed willing or able to lead in a bipartisan manner. Someone who didn't rely on the partisan firestorm of the week to get support.

It's all very disheartening, and hard to explain to my children.

replies(6): >>acid__+N5 >>lghh+l6 >>pjc50+Dn >>dlp211+3q >>agilde+Jr >>mythrw+ON
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3. acid__+N5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:57:33
>>Loughl+W3
Agreed, but I think it’s perhaps just an unavoidable outcome of human nature. (Apologies for the pessimism.) It’s my view that humans are most moved by emotion, and the easiest way to produce emotion as a politician is to play up a charged partisan issue.

Would love to hear alternative takes or solutions if anyone has them.

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4. lghh+l6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:59:26
>>Loughl+W3
Justin Amash might be someone to look for.
5. thepla+Y6[view] [source] 2020-06-02 19:03:12
>>bosswi+(OP)
That's because their support was always fake. It's about non-existent "censorship" of conservatives, nothing more.
replies(2): >>xenosp+c8 >>dionid+u31
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6. xenosp+c8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 19:10:45
>>thepla+Y6
They seem to always go silent when they must take an actual stand. Sadly, this looks like a successful strategy.
7. prudhv+Q9[view] [source] 2020-06-02 19:17:36
>>bosswi+(OP)
Aren't most of these happening in majority left wing states and cities run by the left. AFAIK they are still report the Mayors of the cities. Let's not make this a Right vs Left thing any more. The country is already divided as it is, we don't need further division in this country.
replies(3): >>thepla+1c >>bosswi+Jf >>klyrs+Ur
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8. thepla+1c[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 19:26:10
>>prudhv+Q9
Sure, but the president is a Republican who is relishing the opportunity to violently put down protests.
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9. bosswi+Jf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 19:40:54
>>prudhv+Q9
If the first amendment violations are being done by left wing politicians then it should be even easier for the right to attack them, but instead they're silent or encouraging tougher violations.
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10. pjc50+Dn[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 20:20:19
>>Loughl+W3
Prisoner's dilemma. Bipartisanship is "cooperate", divisiveness is "defect". Cooperating with a defector results in losing badly. The right have worked this out and are playing "defect" continuously. And currently "winning".

We have to change the payoff matrix.

replies(1): >>ashton+WW
11. ashton+bo[view] [source] 2020-06-02 20:24:04
>>bosswi+(OP)
That renewed interest in free speech was never genuine. At the same time they were decrying Twitter “censorship” (mostly on Twitter, I will add), they were busy trying to force laws that would forbid people boycotting Israel from ever getting a government contract. The same people who were praising protest against lock downs are now saying that being out past curfew justifies being shot with a rubber baton.

It was all partisan.

replies(1): >>youese+Iw1
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12. dlp211+3q[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 20:38:20
>>Loughl+W3
What does "lead in a bipartisan manner" even mean? In what era of this country did anyone lead in a "bipartisan manner"?
replies(1): >>rabidr+8P
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13. agilde+Jr[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 20:48:10
>>Loughl+W3
When you have one side that has completely lost touch with reality, being bipartisan is a bad idea.
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14. klyrs+Ur[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 20:49:29
>>prudhv+Q9
Big cities tend to vote democrat, but there are protests in all 50 states.
15. rpiguy+Vy[view] [source] 2020-06-02 21:32:30
>>bosswi+(OP)
Because rioting isn’t free speech. All conservatives support peaceable assembly and protest. They also fiercely believe in property rights as inherently tied to the concept of liberty. It is right in the Declaration of Independence. No conservative worth his or her salt will defend theft, property destruction, etc.
replies(4): >>Barrin+CA >>mcguir+4B >>Mister+eE >>mcv+jS
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16. Barrin+CA[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 21:41:38
>>rpiguy+Vy
rioting is indeed not free speech, but surely attacking the press, one of the fundamental institutions in any democracy, is a violation of free speech.

And not only have the people in question not spoken up in defense of the press, they've actually routinely declare them the enemy of the people.

replies(1): >>rpiguy+pC
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17. mcguir+4B[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 21:43:43
>>rpiguy+Vy
Anybody remember the Clinton administration, when the popular cry was "Charlton Heston is my president!" and "The purpose of the Right to Bear Arms isn't for hunting, it is so that politicians fear the people!"

Yeah, I don't either.

Yes, rioting isn't free speech. Unfortunately, nothing short of rioting seems to work---the people in question are poor and already at the bottom of the social pile, so their options seem limited.

replies(1): >>rpiguy+dC
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18. rpiguy+dC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 21:50:33
>>mcguir+4B
But rioting doesn’t work. The first comprehensive study of riots was just done at Princeton and riots are found to result in crackdowns, not reform. Occupy Wallstreet, Ferguson riots, 1968 riots, LA Riots, Camden riots, all had opposite the intended effect.

Democrats already had the African American vote and the cities. Rioting will swing the suburbs back to Republicans, completing the cycle again.

replies(1): >>mcguir+nP
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19. rpiguy+pC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 21:51:34
>>Barrin+CA
Fully Agree. The press should not be attacked. There is no excuse for it.
replies(1): >>Drybon+U31
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20. Mister+eE[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 22:01:50
>>rpiguy+Vy
I hate to break it to you, but the Boston Tea Party that conservatives were so fond of hijacking for their own partisan purposes destroyed over a million US dollars (in today's money) in other people's property. YOU are comfortable sitting there and "defending property" because it props up a system that benefits you.
replies(1): >>rpiguy+gJ
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21. rpiguy+gJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 22:29:55
>>Mister+eE
And after the revolution the government immediately cracked down on similar tax protests like the Whiskey Rebellion. So what?

On its own I agree the Tea Party is wonton vandalism. The patriots knew that too. They wanted to start a war. They also knew it was lawless and it was debated afterwords until it set of a wave of similar vandalism.

No one outside of a very small group looks back on the race riots of 1968 with pride, or the burning of LA, or Camden.

Are the rioters trying to start a revolutionary war? I hope not. There will be a lot of death everywhere.

The rioters don’t even have a plan or goal for if they “win.” They aren’t making demands. “Fix the police“ and “end systemic racism” isn’t something that can just happen. The rioters don’t have Federalist Papers or any plan for what’s next (unless you count the Communist Manefesto).

Personally I’d like these things to happen too. The police shouldn’t be terrifying. When I was growing up they were likable Andy Griffith types. Everyone knew them. Now they are shaven headed paramilitary. I have no idea who my local cops are. Wtf?

replies(1): >>Mister+f61
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22. mythrw+ON[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 22:55:22
>>Loughl+W3
I wish we could ban political parties (pipe dream I know).

What positive are they doing for us at this juncture?

replies(1): >>nitrog+IV
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23. rabidr+8P[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 23:04:43
>>dlp211+3q
Obama did a pretty damn good job.
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24. mcguir+nP[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 23:07:02
>>rpiguy+dC
Likely true. But a peaceful demonstration results in no media coverage and no changes at all.

This all will not end well.

P.s. Were there significant riots with the Occupy thing? I seem to recall it being mostly quiet (and completely ineffectual).

replies(1): >>leetcr+SX
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25. mcv+jS[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 23:29:12
>>rpiguy+Vy
Not at all. When Kaepernick protested in the most quiet, peaceful and respectful way possible, conservatives were screaming bloody murder. They also did that when MLK was leading protests.

Conservatives support protests by white people, but never by black people.

26. tomjak+yU[view] [source] 2020-06-02 23:47:57
>>bosswi+(OP)
To his credit Justin Amash has been very active in speaking out against government and police actions the past week or so.
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27. nitrog+IV[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 23:58:05
>>mythrw+ON
The first step is encouraging local governments to switch away from first-past-the-post voting, which has been mathematically demonstrated to lead to polarization between two parties that are mostly indistinguishable outside of the core polar issues.
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28. ashton+WW[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 00:05:47
>>pjc50+Dn
The name for this is “asymmetric polarization”. The right polarized and stopped cooperating earlier and more aggressively.
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29. leetcr+SX[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 00:11:22
>>mcguir+nP
I guess we'll have to wait and see if it results in any changes, but baltimore is currently making national news for having some of the most peaceful protests of this last weekend.
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30. dionid+u31[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 00:56:33
>>thepla+Y6
This is, of course, ridiculous. There are serious people who genuinely care about that issue.

More generally, there is always nearby the temptation to definitionally exclude one's political opponents from serious discussion by the lazy insinuation that they don't really believe what they say they believe, that their side is more opportunistic and cynical than yours, and that, therefore, what work even needs to be done to argue the point? After all, there are only two staked-out positions: those who agree with me already and those who are lying about their motives!

Try to resist this. It goes nowhere. It leads to nothing. And I assure you that, whatever the issue, there really are people who see it differently than you. I know that can be hard to accept, but it's almost always true.

replies(1): >>3131s+981
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31. Drybon+U31[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 01:00:35
>>rpiguy+pC
When everyone has a camera, social media audiences, live streams, YouTube channel, websites, and blogs/micro-blogging, what is the definition of Press and why do Press get to ignore restrictions and closed off areas?

Are the only Press allowed to be Press those that are part of a large national news network? Is Alex Jones Press if he shows up to these with a guy with a camera and enters areas civilians are not allowed to be in?

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32. Mister+f61[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 01:20:33
>>rpiguy+gJ
The rioters aren't trying to start a revolutionary war. They're trying to start a conversation that will never happen with a bunch of hand holding and song singing.

We're FAR past that point, and the reason that comfortable white people are so taken aback by this is because they've been given the freedom to ignore it all. Just watch the alternate dimension that is OAN or Fox News, and you will never have to worry about how a minority is ever treated in this country, because they will either tell you it's all bullshit or they will wring their hands for a segment and then go right back to bashing Obama or Clinton for things that are happening 3.5 years into Trump's presidency.

RIGHT NOW cops are shooting tear gas and grenades at peaceful protesters.

RIGHT NOW photographers are losing their vision because police officers are firing rubber bullets at their heads.

RIGHT NOW cops are destroying property and blaming it on imaginary groups of paid protesters.

RIGHT NOW cops are hiding their badge numbers because they don't want to get fired.

RIGHT NOW cops are assaulting and arresting the press.

RIGHT NOW cops have the right to wander into a woman's apartment and shoot her stone cold dead because they didn't read the number.

RIGHT NOW people in this country watch with baited breath to see whether people like that woman who murdered Botham Jean in his own home would even get charged.

It seems to me that a large portion of the conservative side of this country is more than happy with "coming down hard" on people to try to scare anyone else from trying to upset the apple cart. Because it "works."

These protesters? They're just reciprocating what "works."

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33. 3131s+981[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 01:38:57
>>dionid+u31
Sure, don't assume malice with regular people, but US politicians are completely disingenuous and they know exactly what they're doing. It is rare for them to "really believe what they say they believe", because saying anything true at all pretty quickly starts to reveal their financial interests.
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34. youese+Iw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 05:52:47
>>ashton+bo
Indeed. No one likes it when people disagree with them. And this is precisely why the freedom of speech is so important and has thankfully stood its tests in court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech

35. panny+CA1[view] [source] 2020-06-03 06:28:16
>>bosswi+(OP)
>I had been heartened by the right's recent upswing in fierce support for the first amendment, but unfortunately I've seen little of that support during the protests

You do see a difference in the protests, right? The protests against lockdowns didn't include looting, arson, rape, murder, and multiple murdered police.

Here, have a small sample,

Black pawn shop employee murdered by looters for TVs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhG0v9pDycM

"You said black lives matter.. look what you did to my store"

https://mobile.twitter.com/Mus1yMustafa/status/1267874483840...

Destroying store and beating unarmed woman and her husband

https://streamable.com/rvrwil

Restaurant manager beaten and stomped for trying to defend his workplace

https://streamable.com/ila4dh

Stopping, beating and stomping a truck driver while protesters yell to kill him

https://streamable.com/8zk9dq

Protesters attack a media member and then pummel him

https://streamable.com/p4i3jb

Police officer beaten on the streets

https://streamable.com/je4ki5

Car runs over a cop

https://streamable.com/q4nat7

Protesters set homeless man’s belongings on fire

https://streamable.com/sdjvfa

Throwing fireworks at the cops

https://streamable.com/7sv4a9

Chasing and beating guy with red had

https://streamable.com/rcsmi0

I can keep going. It is utterly dispicable. There's a long long list of videos with these "peaceful protestors" in action. Everyone has a camera, and all of this is available for you to see, if you only choose to see it.

replies(1): >>pbourk+aL1
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36. pbourk+aL1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 08:17:07
>>panny+CA1
> Protesters set homeless man’s belongings on fire

This was staged by infowars. I cannot be arsed to look at all of your videos.

The right wing lockdown protests had a strong smell of AstroTurf about them:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/us/politics/coronavirus-p...

replies(1): >>panny+iP1
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37. panny+iP1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 08:58:51
>>pbourk+aL1
>I cannot be arsed to look at all your videos

Oh well, I guess black lives don't actually matter to you then, because the video I lead with is a real black man who really died.

https://fox6now.com/2020/06/02/police-retired-st-louis-polic...

replies(1): >>pbourk+cP2
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38. pbourk+cP2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 16:27:43
>>panny+iP1
I have seen the video in question. It’s tragic.

You neglect the hundreds of thousands of people who turned up in peaceful protests around the world over the last week. These people are seeking positive change within their communities.

Your attempt to mine a simplistic “protests bad” narrative from a complex event is done in bad faith.

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