zlacker

[parent] [thread] 9 comments
1. dunkel+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-02 11:00:22
> I've never seen anyone make the argument that looting is helping the cause. What I have seen is arguments that acknowledge the 'badness' of the looting, and point out that the same arguments are not being applied to the police.

There definitely are people making such arguments. The assertion is that property is the root cause of injustice so presumably destroying it is just. See for example https://twitter.com/ImReadinHere/status/1267402206220869632

What puzzles me is that some people supporting this argument are highly paid software engineers. How do they reconcile this with the fact that it is precisely the concept of private property (and yes, violent enforcement of it) that allows them to sit in front of the computer all day building some cool stuff and not worry that some violent thug will break into their house and take away their laptop?

replies(1): >>totalZ+92
2. totalZ+92[view] [source] 2020-06-02 11:21:01
>>dunkel+(OP)
You can be the beneficiary of a system and still understand that there are specific positive externalities of that system's partial failure.

For example, a corrupt politician can understand why an anti-bribery campaign is beneficial for his country.

I think it's fair to say that destruction of private property turns the situation into an economic problem, which in turn is a political pressure point. Rich people have more influence over police departments and attorneys general than do poor people. But for such pressure to do any useful work, the message must be, "give us justice and the looting will end."

(That justice may come in the form of charges against specific police officers, or perhaps as a campaign of institutional reforms within the police apparatus.)

replies(3): >>zarath+J6 >>dunkel+ld >>cousin+wj
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3. zarath+J6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 12:10:08
>>totalZ+92
>But for such pressure to do any useful work, the message must be, "give us justice and the looting will end."

Consider for a moment what the optimal strategy would be to handle this vandalism and looting from the perspective of "Rich people." A) Capitulate to the demands of people using terror / destruction of property as leverage B) Utilize the vast resources available to you to end the source of the problem

I think your heart is in the right place in a very Robin Hood-esque kind of way but you're not grappling with reality if you think "give us justice and the looting will end" is going to play out favorably for the looters

replies(1): >>totalZ+8V2
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4. dunkel+ld[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 13:04:05
>>totalZ+92
> You can be the beneficiary of a system and still understand that there are specific positive externalities of that system's partial failure. For example, a corrupt politician can understand why an anti-bribery campaign is beneficial for his country.

True, but presumably these software engineers that I was talking about think about the ability to do their work as something worthy and morally good, not simply as a benefit that they get from a corrupt system. On the other hand, corrupt politicians don't think of bribes as something desirable to have in a system: they either cynically exploit their position for strictly personal gain or think of themselves as victims of the system who are forced to take bribes.

> I think it's fair to say that destruction of private property turns the situation into an economic problem, which in turn is a political pressure point. Rich people have more influence over police departments and attorneys general than do poor people. But for such pressure to do any useful work, the message must be, "give us justice and the looting will end."

This can be a valid strategy. I am reminded of someone who successfully executed this strategy: ANC and Nelson Mandela. But they were very clear in their demands and always stressed that they were reluctantly engaging in violence only because they had exhausted all peaceful methods. In contrast it seems that many who support recent riots are not very interested in actual solutions to the problem and only want to stick it to the Man in some way.

replies(1): >>thisis+hY
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5. cousin+wj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 13:44:17
>>totalZ+92
When you loot a store in your area, you aren't hurting "rich people", because they aren't a unified blob. You're just hurting a few people, like this guy and his wife: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uqOM94RJVc Eventually they will bounce back and restart somewhere else, where they are more welcome. But your area will have fewer businesses and jobs for a long time, because you've showed everyone the return on investment.

Edit: it seems exactly this happened after the Ferguson riots https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ferguson-anniversary-fina...

replies(2): >>1Machi+Fo >>newen+YH
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6. 1Machi+Fo[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 14:16:12
>>cousin+wj
Baltimore has NOT recovered from it's 2015 riots.
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7. newen+YH[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 15:56:05
>>cousin+wj
Why should the looters care? How do the looters benefit from having stores in their area that they are too poor to buy from? The taxes from these stores are less and less helping them with social programs etc and go more towards funding police departments that brutalize them.
replies(1): >>thisis+QX
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8. thisis+QX[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 17:14:07
>>newen+YH
> The taxes from these stores are less and less helping them with social programs etc and go more towards funding police departments that brutalize them.

That sounds like an assumption whose truth is heavily dependent on being in a specific locality.

> How do the looters benefit from having stores in their area that they are too poor to buy from?

Again, an assumption that is highly dependent on geography and specific looting. You're also assuming that the looters are necessarily poor -- forgetting about, for example, organized crime.

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9. thisis+hY[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 17:16:02
>>dunkel+ld
It's also important to distinguish between the protests vs elements using the protests (and pandemic) as a cover for crime. In NYC it least, it seems that the protests & those looting are two separate groups.
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10. totalZ+8V2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 07:34:23
>>zarath+J6
I'm not Robin Hood, but I appreciate that you are looking for a friendly and non-pejorative way to engage someone with whom you disagree.

Those vast resources that you mention (police and military) are at the very core of the conflict. Their use of force has only exacerbated the problem, because people spread videos of unjustifiable abuses (three cops brutalizing one prostrate individual in LA, a cop hitting protestors with his vehicle in NYC, a brigade of cops shooting law-abiding people on their own porch in Minneapolis, etc) that in turn draw more protestors to the fore.

Your A/B scenario is precisely the problem -- you equate the soothing of public anger with "capitulation" rather than "justice," and you make violence an imperative by arguing that the only strong approach is the brutal one.

Not to mention that you express a view that police brutality can "end the source of the problem." What is the source of the problem, if not police brutality itself? Were Americans violating curfews to demonstrate in the streets of major cities immediately prior to the murder of George Floyd?

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