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[parent] [thread] 37 comments
1. anonym+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-05-31 19:11:35
Timely article, but what about violent criminal activity during protests? Peaceful protests are wonderful and have been very effective throughout history. The protests we've seen for the past few days are not helping anything. Yes, people are angry at the criminal behavior of the police officer/murderer, but manifesting that anger by destroying property, looting, injuring, and threatening others, is only going to justify the use of more police violence.
replies(6): >>asutek+9 >>ixtli+A2 >>on_and+C4 >>throwa+y5 >>gedy+96 >>thephy+6a
2. asutek+9[view] [source] 2020-05-31 19:13:31
>>anonym+(OP)
I’ll just play the devil’s advocate, but when have peaceful protests ever helped the cause? Those are forgotten as soon as they are over.
replies(4): >>anonym+L >>jbay80+P >>hollan+m1 >>quickl+G1
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3. anonym+L[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 19:17:38
>>asutek+9
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gandhi-leads-civ... https://time.com/5101740/martin-luther-king-peaceful-protest...
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4. jbay80+P[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 19:18:02
>>asutek+9
Indian independence? Martin Luther King?
replies(2): >>jude-+I1 >>ixtli+R2
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5. hollan+m1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 19:21:47
>>asutek+9
Poland, Gdansk, Lech Walesa
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6. quickl+G1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 19:24:31
>>asutek+9
Of all the civil rights leaders, I’d say people remember Martin Luther King Jr the best.

It’s probably also worth asking: when have violent protests ever helped the cause?

I think that the violence of the protests helped to get Derek Chauvin arrested. But I’m not sure that continued violence will help the broader movement.

replies(1): >>throwa+Ee
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7. jude-+I1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 19:24:52
>>jbay80+P
In both cases, the protestors were violently attacked over and over. Also, both Ghandi and MLK were murdered for their efforts.
replies(1): >>jbay80+id
8. ixtli+A2[view] [source] 2020-05-31 19:31:59
>>anonym+(OP)
All you need to do is watch videos of protests anywhere to see cops aggressing on protestors, shooting people on their lawns, arresting and shooting reporters for major news networks on camera. When people are aggressed upon by armed security forces in other countries I'll bet most dont take the side of the people with the guns, so why now?
replies(1): >>coolsp+63
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9. ixtli+R2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 19:33:41
>>jbay80+P
Ghandi is the face of that movement but was just the tip of what was a very bloody revolution. It is important that we think the movement was "non-violent" such that we can point to it to dissuade people from challenging the status quo in a material way.
replies(2): >>pell+38 >>jbay80+wd
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10. coolsp+63[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 19:35:49
>>ixtli+A2
There are examples of pure looting. E.g. The Grove in Los Angeles: https://youtu.be/hpXdXLaJhKE
replies(1): >>ssalaz+N7
11. on_and+C4[view] [source] 2020-05-31 19:46:52
>>anonym+(OP)
They tried kneeling and it was super effective!!
replies(1): >>thephy+8b
12. throwa+y5[view] [source] 2020-05-31 19:54:21
>>anonym+(OP)
Oh, I don't know. Peaceful protests of police violence have been a regular feature of life here in Baltimore, thanks to our famously corrupt and racist PD, but it took the 2015 Freddie Gray protests - which occurred in the wake of the same kind of murder as was done to George Floyd, and were violent enough to garner nationwide coverage - to spark the federal investigation that led to the 2017 consent decree and the ongoing scrutiny that, among other improvements in police behavior and in response to police misbehavior, looks to have so far at least kept Baltimore noticeably absent from the lists of cities seeing significant violence this time around.

So, at least in my town, it looks a lot like violent protests of the sort you decry do help. Certainly nothing else has done as well.

replies(1): >>yters+Oa
13. gedy+96[view] [source] 2020-05-31 19:58:52
>>anonym+(OP)
I think its root is in "direct action"[0], and intentional/encouraged by at least some. Others are just opportunists, for their own gain.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action

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14. ssalaz+N7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 20:13:08
>>coolsp+63
Ugly but beside the point. Why arent the police protecting these businesses, if looting is such a concern, rather than instigating peaceful protestors? Besides, these businesses are all insured; Im certain that Apple and Luxottica, some of the richest companies in the world, can write off the loss.

By contrast, nothing will bring back George Floyd, let alone the countless black people afflicted by police brutality that weren't caught on camera. With millions still unemployed and a sense that society has left so many behind, COVID in the US was a powder keg looking for a match, and a breakdown of order shouldnt really be unexpected.

replies(1): >>thephy+Ma
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15. pell+38[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 20:14:42
>>ixtli+R2
Gandhi was also not a pacifist. He strongly believed in the right of self-defense.
16. thephy+6a[view] [source] 2020-05-31 20:30:09
>>anonym+(OP)
These are two separate things happening at near the same places. This is being done on purpose by people with anarchist tendencies -- to hide among legitimate protesters.

Some agitators are anti-government. Others are full on anarchists. Others want to bait people into race wars (a la the Turner Diaries, cited by white nationalist mass shooters and the Oklahoma City bomber).

replies(1): >>anonym+bX
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17. thephy+Ma[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 20:35:26
>>ssalaz+N7
I'm pro-protest and pro-police-accountability-reforms, but some of your logic fails.

> Besides, these businesses are all insured

Some of them are. But having to claim on insurance is an expensive proposition that eats into profit margins (which is extra difficult in the middle of a worldwide depression).

> Im certain that Apple and Luxottica, some of the richest companies in the world, can write off the loss.

Most companies aren't multinational megacorps in high profit businesses.

I drove through South Central Los Angeles about 1 year after the Rodney King riots. I don't know what proportion of the businesses were rebuilt, but it was pretty clearly that many of the buildings hasn't been rebuilt. Large scale building damage takes a LONG time to rebuild and probably means the business can't run until it's done.

replies(2): >>ssalaz+fd >>makomk+5y
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18. yters+Oa[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 20:35:33
>>throwa+y5
I've heard the 2015 riots resulted in a stand down of the police force in Baltimore, and since then crime in the city has increased significantly. Sounds like the reason criminals are not rioting is because they won. Great for the criminals, but not great for their victims, which are probably mostly the improvished, not the affluent who can afford a replacement for the missing police.

In all these riot situations, it is portrayed as the poor sticking it to the rich, who presumably are using the police to oppress the poor. But I suspect that in reality it is mostly the poor becoming even more downtrodden by the criminal elements, and the rich remain unaffected. Perhaps the rich even profit a bit from what happens, such as politicians winning more government money to "help with all the troubles".

replies(1): >>throwa+ed
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19. thephy+8b[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 20:37:24
>>on_and+C4
But you know that they kneeled. Their marketing broke through your attention defenses.

The problem is converting that into something tangible that furthers their goals.

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20. throwa+ed[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 20:53:56
>>yters+Oa
Leaving aside that the next plea I hear from black Baltimore for more policing on the BPD model will absolutely be the first - I find it odd that you know so much about this, and so little about other things people have said in this thread that you also disagree with. You've asked others to cite their sources. Why be so unforthcoming with your own?
replies(1): >>yters+ng
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21. ssalaz+fd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 20:54:04
>>thephy+Ma
I appreciate the counterargument. I would never advocate looting, especially of small/family businesses. The part of Los Angeles where I live has been hit hard by looting this weekend, including many small businesses, and its painful to see. I would highly prefer peaceful protesting and peaceful policing. But there is really no comparison of a line item on a multibillion dollar balance sheet--the linked video is all luxury multinationals--with peoples' actual real lives. The response of "what about the looters?" is a distraction from exactly that.
replies(1): >>thephy+7C
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22. jbay80+id[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 20:54:22
>>jude-+I1
Yes, a peaceful protest can be violently attacked and still be a peaceful protest.

It's not required that the police be peaceful, only the protesters.

replies(1): >>anonym+3X
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23. jbay80+wd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 20:56:08
>>ixtli+R2
Would you say that his protests didn't change anything and were forgotten as soon as they were over?
replies(1): >>ixtli+zX1
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24. throwa+Ee[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 21:07:11
>>quickl+G1
"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” "

MLK, Letter From a Birmingham Jail

replies(1): >>quickl+ko
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25. yters+ng[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 21:20:20
>>throwa+ed
There's the homicide rate, which jumped from 33.8% in 2014 to 55.4% in 2015, and has stayed above 50% since.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Baltimore#Crime_stati...

A little further down:

"Homicides in Baltimore are heavily concentrated within a small number of high-poverty neighborhoods."

So, my prima facie impression from these data points is the stand down has not benefitted the poor.

replies(1): >>throwa+ej
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26. throwa+ej[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 21:41:00
>>yters+ng
Would that be the homicide rate that's shown no significant first-derivative variance from the national rate since 2015? - the homicide rate that you're not even bothering to cite correctly? Those are figures per hundred thousand, not per hundred as you give them here.

In either case, you're massively misrepresenting the "stand down" order, which was not a policy of indefinite disengagement, but rather a specific instruction given in the scope of the 2015 protests in an attempt to avoid further escalation. Whether or not the order was successful in that sense is a matter for separate discussion, but to claim it's a permanent thing, the way you are doing, is simply false to fact - which is probably why you still haven't sourced that claim.

While we're on the topic of BPD actions during the 2015 protests, have you heard about the cop who used the opportunity to loot drugs from a pharmacy and later sell them on to street dealers? [1] I suspect not; for all your apparent interest in the doings of the Baltimore PD, you seem surprisingly ill informed. That's far from all the Gun Trace Task Force got up to, either [2], nor were they alone in their corruption. These are things you need to know about, if you want to talk about policing in my town and expect to be worth taking seriously. But here you are, needing to be told about them. I wonder why that is.

[1] https://archive.is/UeB7E

[2] https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2018/2/...

replies(1): >>yters+Nm
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27. yters+Nm[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 22:08:34
>>throwa+ej
This article from USA Today in 2018 implies the effect has been indefinite. Interesting graph, too, that shows the drop in police actively stopping petty crime correlates with a growth in homicides. I heard a Baltimore radio show in 2019 that said pretty much the same thing, highlighted by the police commissioner getting mugged in broad daylight as he was walking down the street with his wife.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/07/12/baltim...

“These guys aren’t stupid. They realize that if they do something wrong, they’re going to get their head bit off. There’s no feeling that anybody’s behind them anymore, and they’re not going to do it,” he says. “Nobody wants to put their head in the pizza oven when the pizza oven is on.”

replies(1): >>throwa+Xs
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28. quickl+ko[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 22:17:39
>>throwa+Ee
I actually agree with the protestors, not just in their goal but also in their methods thus far. Like I said in my earlier post, I think this helped get the police officer fired and arrested.

I hope this doesn’t get me labeled as “white” or “moderate” (I am neither).

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29. throwa+Xs[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 22:46:58
>>yters+Nm
How does a reduction in police-initiated enforcement actions square with a rise in homicides? Homicide is, pretty much by definition, not a petty crime. Or is this that hoary old "broken windows" theory of policing that's taken such a well-deserved beating over the last couple of decades?

The article also, despite a clear editorial slant, can't quite avoid hinting at the kind of solution that actually does need to happen: not for police officers to simply abrogate the responsibility they accepted with their oaths when the public makes clear their conduct has been unacceptable, but for police officers to improve their conduct, and discharge the responsibility they took on, to actually protect and serve.

I grant that that lies outside the false dichotomy you choose to draw, between police doing nothing and police continuing in the massive abuse of power status quo ante. But, after all, it is a false dichotomy. You can do better.

I hope you can do better, anyway. For one thing, you promoted the deputy police commissioner, which I'm sure he appreciates, and spun the world clear around on its axis so he got mugged in the daytime, when he didn't, instead of at night, when he did. (cf. https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/20/us/baltimore-deputy-police-co...)

These are very strange errors of fact to go on making with, it seems like, every single claim you've introduced so far. Wherever you're getting your information from, you might consider finding sources that do a better job of sticking to facts, because whatever you've been using up to now seems not much good at anything beyond leading you into error.

replies(1): >>yters+8C
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30. makomk+5y[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 23:21:37
>>thephy+Ma
Yeah, and insurance isn't going to cover the lost income whilst rebuilding - if it even covers rioting at all. For example, America's oldest indie sci-fi bookstore was torched as part of the riots, totally destroyed, and the owner isn't expecting to get a single cent from insurance due to the exclusions: http://www.unclehugo.com/prod/index.shtml
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31. thephy+7C[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 23:54:31
>>ssalaz+fd
> The response of "what about the looters?" is a distraction from exactly that.

Yup.

And I personally think that a lot of the violence isn't the average protesters who care about police accountability, but people who are just using protests as an excuse to wreak havoc with less chance of being singled out for arrest.

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32. yters+8C[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 23:54:49
>>throwa+Xs
The point is clear the police withdrawing has not improved things. The solution clearly lies elsewhere. And the 2015 riots did not make anything better.
replies(1): >>throwa+HC
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33. throwa+HC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 23:59:15
>>yters+8C
Well, now you're just reiterating things you've already said and failed to support the first time. I guess that means we're done here.
replies(1): >>yters+CL
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34. yters+CL[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 01:36:56
>>throwa+HC
I showed the crime rates went up after the riots because the police have stopped actively cleaning up crime. You never showed how the supporting evidence is wrong, nor why my inference was incorrect. You mainly nitpicked insignificant details. I would be genuinely interested if you can show violent riots have made life better for law abiding citizens in Baltimore.
replies(1): >>yters+bT
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35. yters+bT[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 03:27:21
>>yters+CL
look, i get the point that riots draw attention and show people are fed up. that makes sense

but, in baltimore that just led to lax police, more crime, and more homicides

i believe the same will happen with these riots. police will withdraw from blac neighborhoods, and the criminal element will have free reign. that is a bad outcome, and more innocent people will suffer than will benefit

we are trying to make life better for innocent black people, but being scared of the neighborhood gang bangers is not a step up from being scared of the police

and this will not bring justice for the victims, police may throw some sacrifices, but they otherwise will just be less caring about black neighborhoods and police mistreatment of black people, and the gulf will widen

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36. anonym+3X[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 04:34:18
>>jbay80+id
And that is exactly why they were successful. When governments/police crack down on peaceful protests, it shines the light on the oppressor's behavior and creates a strong sympathetic reaction. That reaction is what evokes the change.
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37. anonym+bX[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 04:35:54
>>thephy+6a
Do not forget about the Trump "resistors". I'm assuming that they are out with the mob too.
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38. ixtli+zX1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 15:12:14
>>jbay80+wd
No, the history taught about ghandi carefully selects instances of "non-violence". I don't think ghandi is responsible for how we learn about ghandi in the west.

Just like MLK is regarded as "peaceful" when in fact he and others spoke quite a bit about the fact that there was never any response from white people unless property was attacked.

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