zlacker

[parent] [thread] 30 comments
1. newacc+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-05-29 13:13:27
Not an argument for this site I guess. But this is what happens when you have political leaders picking sides in violence. Trump literally tweeted "when the looting starts the shooting starts" (not before this event, of course -- it's an example). You think rhetoric like that doesn't have the effect of empowering police to abuse their power against people they don't like?
replies(5): >>spoile+I >>sparkl+H2 >>kfrzco+vq >>acobst+ut >>corrup+WF
2. spoile+I[view] [source] 2020-05-29 13:16:32
>>newacc+(OP)
Police abuse their power when leaders pick sides? And what about the Mayor? Has he not chosen sides? He lambasted the riots, but has allowed it to continue. Actions and words.
replies(4): >>snazz+f1 >>blunte+e2 >>tehweb+F2 >>newacc+P5
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3. snazz+f1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 13:18:39
>>spoile+I
Frey's actual power over the police and the Hennepin County Attorney is relatively limited.
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4. blunte+e2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 13:24:50
>>spoile+I
The mayor doesn't have authority over the police.
replies(1): >>creagh+Wd
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5. tehweb+F2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 13:27:03
>>spoile+I
The mayor told the police to do the one thing that could’ve stopped all of this: arrest the murderer.

100% of this is happening because police continue to refuse to arrest police.

6. sparkl+H2[view] [source] 2020-05-29 13:27:07
>>newacc+(OP)
> when the looting starts the shooting starts

Harsh words, but at the end of the day, people will defend their property with a gun and have every right in doing so.

replies(2): >>newacc+B6 >>splitr+Of
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7. newacc+P5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 13:46:30
>>spoile+I
> He lambasted the riots, but has allowed it to continue

How, exactly? I mean, it's not like the rioters are following his orders (or maybe you're saying they are?!). If you're just saying it's his responsibility, then sure, but he's not the only one. Aren't community leaders, the police, the governor and the president likewise "allowing" the riots to continue simply because they haven't stopped them?

I mean, Trump literally evoked an image of shooting rioters. Did anyone else do anything similar?

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8. newacc+B6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 13:51:47
>>sparkl+H2
Trump was talking literally about directing the military to shoot looters (it's right there in the tweet!), not expressing an abstract right of people to defend their own property.

So no, downvoting you isn't anything to do with the constitution.

replies(1): >>sparkl+s8
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9. sparkl+s8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 14:04:26
>>newacc+B6
> Trump was talking literally about directing the military to shoot looters

Uhm, no

replies(2): >>newacc+jc >>MaxBar+6e
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10. newacc+jc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 14:28:06
>>sparkl+s8
Quote the tweet then.
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11. creagh+Wd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 14:39:06
>>blunte+e2
Who does?
replies(1): >>blunte+MH
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12. MaxBar+6e[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 14:39:34
>>sparkl+s8
> ....These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won't let that happen. Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Thank you!

[sic]

Taken from https://news.sky.com/story/george-floyd-death-twitter-flags-...

replies(1): >>101404+Or
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13. splitr+Of[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 14:47:41
>>sparkl+H2
Yes, extrajudicial murder to protect physical property, that's justice.

When you care more about stuff than you do about actual human lives, your evil is showing.

replies(2): >>pwilli+Rt >>bruceb+HI
14. kfrzco+vq[view] [source] 2020-05-29 15:35:11
>>newacc+(OP)
Where's the HN-for-politicking? (not /r/*)
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15. 101404+Or[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:39:51
>>MaxBar+6e
So, were did he say "to shoot looters"?

That's just one possible interpretation, if you really want to understand him that way.

replies(3): >>pwilli+ru >>MaxBar+Au >>newacc+gy
16. acobst+ut[view] [source] 2020-05-29 15:47:12
>>newacc+(OP)
"Not an argument for this site I guess," hence the downvotes, heh. I agree though. And I'd take it a step further and say that the institution of policing in the US has historically always been on the side of systemic violence. Police forces literally started as night patrols to catch runaway slaves, which as about as racist as it gets. If there was a point in history where they somehow severed ties with their racist origins and underwent fundamental, institutional change, I've yet to learn about it.
replies(1): >>banads+9y
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17. pwilli+Rt[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:49:08
>>splitr+Of
Your insured stuff even...
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18. pwilli+ru[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:51:20
>>101404+Or
> Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we [The Military] will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts.

Who would he be implying is doing the shooting other than the Military that will assume control?

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19. MaxBar+Au[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:52:07
>>101404+Or
No, it isn't one of several reasonable interpretations, it's what he quite plainly wrote.

What else could 'shooting' possibly refer to, if not the shooting of looters?

replies(1): >>101404+V51
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20. banads+9y[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:04:56
>>acobst+ut
>If there was a point in history where they somehow severed ties with their racist origins and underwent fundamental, institutional change, I've yet to learn about it.

The opposite, actually. The civil rights movement of the 60s was infiltrated, surveilled, and disrupted by secret police, and largely ended with it's greatest leaders being assassinated and mass riots.

Then Nixon launched the War on Drugs in the 70s and mass incarceration began.

In the 80s we saw Democrats and Republicans further ramping up the war on drugs, with the passage of laws such as the Anti Drug Abuse Act of 1986, while at the same time it was soon revealed that the CIA was helping their Nicaraguan Contra friends raise money by importing billions of dollars of cocaine into inner cities as a part of the Iran Contra conspiracy, initializing the crack epidemic. The investigations into these wrong doings was quickly shut down, the investigative journalist leading the charge was suicided, and the government officials responsible were pardoned.

Fast forward 30 years, and the mass incarceration levels have been holding steady and communities are even weaker by some metrics than they were before the civil rights movement, though perhaps we've made some marginal improvements in states where cannabis has been legalized, but we've still got a lot more to do: namely, ending the tyrannical and racist war on drugs at the Federal level.

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21. newacc+gy[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:05:21
>>101404+Or
It's true that the president's writing here is characteristically vague. But right here in this one tweet he:

1. Introduces the military

2. Says he will assume control

3. Introduces the idea of shooting looters

Given that context, it's extremely difficult to concoct an interpretation where he's not saying he'll direct the military to shoot looters.

I mean, be serious here. Is your defense really that "The president's grammar was poor, so you can't prove he meant what he seemed to say". How many times are you going to try that trick? Wasn't it played out after he vaguely suggested injecting bleach?

replies(1): >>MaxBar+SB
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22. MaxBar+SB[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:18:48
>>newacc+gy
In the interests of precision, Trump didn't suggest that people try injecting bleach, he suggested that researchers look into injecting disinfectant as a means of treating those with the virus.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52407177

I see I'm being downvoted. Is my account of things incorrect, or is it because I didn't explicitly spell out that it's silly for a president to give brain-dead research advice to experts?

replies(1): >>101404+KL1
23. corrup+WF[view] [source] 2020-05-29 16:37:30
>>newacc+(OP)
> "when the looting starts the shooting starts"

That's simply a recognition that looting begets violence, meaning that the looting must be stopped before things become more violent, and a call to action to those who appear content to let the looting run rampant as if it's somehow OK or justified.

In such an escalation both protestors and counter protestors would be shooting, so bringing the situation under control quickly is in the best interest of the protestors and the community as a whole.

Trump's tweet was just a recognition of that.

replies(1): >>popula+NJ
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24. blunte+MH[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:44:28
>>creagh+Wd
It will depend on the type of police force. In the case of a state police, it would be a combination of the state legislature and state judiciary. The real answer is surely lengthy and complicated, but suffice to say the mayor (thankfully) does not control the police... just as thankfully the president does not control the military.
replies(1): >>thejyn+Ha1
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25. bruceb+HI[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:48:37
>>splitr+Of
Depends where you live. The duty to retreat is different depending on location.

Shooting someone over dollar store items is dumb. But defending your sole proprietorship you have built up and is the only thing you have, understandable.

replies(1): >>splitr+q51
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26. popula+NJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:53:10
>>corrup+WF
Thank you for Trumpsplaining that one. Boy, I need to get better at hearing it like it is.
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27. splitr+q51[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 18:30:51
>>bruceb+HI
Frankly, if you value stuff over people's lives, well, I don't know how to teach you that you should care.

Secondly, this is a single, solitary reason out of the myriad of other reasons, why we, as as a species, invented insurance.

Please, give up your childish John Wayne fantasies, which, to be honest are barbaric and counter to the very essence of civilization, and join the adults who build societies and systems that protect people.

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28. 101404+V51[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 18:33:01
>>MaxBar+Au
Shooting could refer to guns use by the looters. It could refer to self defense of police attacked by looters. It could simply be a word to symbolize violence of any kind. And there are many more interpretations.

But discussion about it isn't possible, sorry. I am heavily downvoted for not following groupthink, so I am rate limited when it comes to posting.

Oh well.

Why aren't people over there more upset about those reporters getting arrested by state police on the street? That was pretty f'ed up. But I guess when it can't be blamed on Trump, people over there just don't care.

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29. thejyn+Ha1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 18:55:51
>>blunte+MH
I'd like to know exactly when the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces doesn't control the military.
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30. 101404+KL1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 22:31:24
>>MaxBar+SB
Yes, that's another thing Trump said that was purposefully "misunderstood".

There are many things to criticize him for. But sadly the media is so incredibly lazy that they constantly make up these "scandals" about things he supposedly "meant".

And: you are downvoted because you are not following groupthink. It doesn't matter how factually correct it is.

replies(1): >>MaxBar+EM2
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31. MaxBar+EM2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-30 11:02:25
>>101404+KL1
The truth of it is still scandalous. Does it absolve Trump of responsibility for idiots drinking disinfectant? At least partially, yes. It's still a ridiculous way for a leader to behave.

It's absurd that Trump thought he was in a position to give technical advice to medical researchers, and it's even more absurd that he thought injecting disinfectant could be the way to go. The hubris and ignorance on display here are shocking.

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