zlacker

Not to engage in ageism, but speaking from the benefit of having the benefit of being younger, and older, I can say that when I was younger, I was blissfully unaware of the huge list of things that would result in a person's employment ending, that I thought was absolutely reasonable for one to do. And maybe it was reasonable for one to do. But it also ended one's employment. I think the GP was mostly just trying to surface one of the laws of reality - you shit talk your employer - you will likely no longer be employed. And unless you were reporting some illegal activity, (in which case whistle blower laws may afford some level of protection, check with your lawyer first though) - there isn't much you can do about it. Just kind of a law of nature.

>>ghshep+(OP)
I think all of us learned these lessons the hard way, what's amazing is how much resistance I've encountered when I try to share this wisdom with folks in their early 20's. I guess the old adage is true, people like to learn their own lessons.

>>ghshep+(OP)
Its very far from a "law of nature"

>>Aloha+d2
The resistance you're finding is not people disbelieving you, it's them trying to get you to understand that this is a Bad Thing we should want to change, even though it is true right now.

>>throwa+c6
Let's not be pedantic here. If something reliably happens, without any explicit ruleset like a law triggering it to happen that way, I feel it is fair to call it a "law of nature", as it occurs "naturally".

If you talk smack about someone, expect them to talk smack back about you.

If you talk smack about your employer, the employer will talk smack back about you (a lot of times, in the form of ending their involvement with you).

>>Aloha+d2
>>> In general, trash talking one's employer in public is usually inversely proportional to the longevity of one's employment with said employer.

> I think all of us learned these lessons the hard way, what's amazing is how much resistance I've encountered when I try to share this wisdom with folks in their early 20's. I guess the old adage is true, people like to learn their own lessons.

I think it's arguable the lesson you're referring too is not "wisdom," but rather an obvious form of status-quo acceptance. I don't think just "accept the status quo" would be counted as wisdom by many. The status quo used to include many awful things that are now rightly regarded with horror (for instance, executing someone for criticizing the king), and there are many things we accept now that will be regarded with similar horror in the future.

I'd bet money that the resistance you're encountering is moral rejection. You argue that something is true but acceptable. Your interlocutors also understand that thing to be true but they see it as unacceptable. And frankly, they're right: criticizing working conditions is always acceptable (even if they're not your working conditions, but those of your colleagues), and the people who do so need strong productions against reprisals by their employers. That's how working conditions are improved.

>>ghshep+(OP)
This is a really tragic tale: a young person is bludgeoned into accepting a status quo as inherent, rather than something they could ever change.

>>burkam+O6
Well, hold on: do you think it's really a "Bad Thing", and by your capitalisation I'm guessing you mean universally a bad thing to experience negative consequences for publicly trash-talking about your employer?

Sure, if you're whistleblowing something systemically unethical - as may well be the case here - then you should be able to do the right thing without fear of negative consequence. I.e., your employer, Amazon in this case, can't fire you.

However, speaking in more general terms, some people just love to whine and complain about things that simply aren't that important: I've worked with plenty (none at the moment, I hasten to add).

For example, and flipping it around: is it a Good Thing for you to trash talk your employer just because you don't happen to like your boss very much? No, I don't think it is, and I think it's entirely reasonable for you to get into trouble if you do.

Is it a Good Thing to trash talk a potential employer because you didn't like their hiring process? No. If other potential employers read what you've said they might choose not to interview you even if your concerns are legitimate. You can stand on principle if you want but of all the issues in the world you could stand on principle about, is this one really worth it? I'd say not but you may disagree.

Getting more serious: what about if your boss is a bully? Should you publicly trash talk them? No! Are you out of your mind?!?? You should do some research and find out how to deal with it effectively and in a way that doesn't damage your future career prospects, either at your current company (which may be a lost cause) or elsewhere, which may include getting and following legal advice.

Certainly for these serious issues: bullying, sexual harassment, discrimination, and so on, if the issues are with a specific individual, rather than a systemic or cultural problem, whistleblowing is probably not the way to go. Note that for certain safety issues, or breaches relating to personally identifiable information, you may have a legal obligation to notify even for isolated incidents, depending on your jurisdiction (IANAL).

The problem with trash-talking your employer, or even former employers, is that you risk sending a signal to potential future employers that you are a troublemaker. In some cases this is not an illegitimate concern, and because of this employers tend to be cautious, which can harm your prospects.

Let me reiterate that I'm talking about trash talking in general, not the specific case of these Amazon employees, and very much not whistleblower activities involving systemic ethical failings by an employer or organisation.

>>bartre+Yk
> you mean universally a bad thing to experience negative consequences for publicly trash-talking about your employer?

That is not what I mean. This conversation is about the accepted "law of nature" that if you say bad things about your employer you will probably be fired. As you point out, sometimes there are good reasons to publicly say bad things about your employer. Therefore, it is bad that firing is the accepted consequence regardless of the situation, and we should seek to change this status quo.

>>burkam+zv
Cool. I think we might be in violent agreement.