zlacker

[parent] [thread] 9 comments
1. hos234+(OP)[view] [source] 2019-08-08 12:41:15
Discussion in todays world is highly over rated.

There are people who build hospitals and there are people who stand around talking about who should build hospitals.

The former group in any population in any country is very small. The latter group is very large and thanks to the current architecture of the internet have gotten so over amplified that they think they actually matter.

Their resumes don't have any actual achievement beyond drawing attention to things. They don't matter. People who are driven to build hospitals will keep building hospitals irrespective of all the "discussions" going on.

replies(4): >>FussyZ+Q3 >>coldte+ei >>wasdff+QA >>tlb+yN
2. FussyZ+Q3[view] [source] 2019-08-08 13:16:38
>>hos234+(OP)
The idea that the 'doers' are the only ones that matter, and that drawing attention to issues is mere posturing for social standing is a bad-faith critique of many people who act with good intentions.

Yes, there are always those seeking to attach their names to worthy causes for their own gains. However people have taken that legitimate critique and amplified it to the degree that "If you aren't fixing the problem, you have zero right to complain about it" which is flatly ridiculous. You can be in a position where helping fix a given problem is simply not possible for any one of thousands of understandable reasons, but that doesn't mean you aren't allowed to speak about it, if for no other reason than so the other people who are able to help might know about it.

People like to rip on others for the perception that they only draw awareness to issues and nothing more, but what exactly is a 20-something in college supposed to do? They often don't have disposable income, they often lack the means to travel to places, unless they are in the right college chances are they can't join a protest, the one resource they have in abundance is time. And so they use what they have to generate whatever impact they can.

However small it might be, that impact is still worlds more helpful than the collected caws of "WhY aReN'T yoU fIxINg iT YOuRseLf?!"

replies(2): >>vorpal+f5 >>hos234+7j
◧◩
3. vorpal+f5[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-08-08 13:24:39
>>FussyZ+Q3
It doesn't take money to join protests. It doesn't take money to volunteer, even if it's just maintaining a newsletter or occasionally seeking donations for your local org.

It's very easy to throw stones from afar when you've never been in the trenches. Those who don't do often make unreasonable demands because they have no connection to the reality of the situation of actually getting a thing done.

replies(1): >>FussyZ+66
◧◩◪
4. FussyZ+66[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-08-08 13:29:47
>>vorpal+f5
> It doesn't take money to join protests.

Travel expenses, taking time off work, food and drink, accommodations...

> It doesn't take money to volunteer, even if it's just maintaining a newsletter or occasionally seeking donations for your local org.

Many activists do those things, though. They're still dragged through the mud for "not doing enough" or "just talking."

> It's very easy to throw stones from afar when you've never been in the trenches.

I've never flown a helicopter, but when someone puts one in a tree I can still say "dude fucked it up." and be correct.

> Those who don't do often make unreasonable demands because they have no connection to the reality of the situation of actually getting a thing done.

"Reasonable," "civil," "practical," are all examples of words used by those empowered by a status quo to resist changes to it. "We're happy to discuss issues, but the discussion should be ciiiiviiil" which I mean, yeah, I generally prefer civil discussions, but when the topic at hand is decidedly uncivil, for example taking people's children and imprisoning them at the border, then I believe an uncivil response is warranted.

replies(1): >>vorpal+Ka
◧◩◪◨
5. vorpal+Ka[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-08-08 13:59:19
>>FussyZ+66
> Travel expenses, taking time off work, food and drink, accommodations...

Most protest organizers can set you up with a free bus ticket if you reach out to them and are in a reasonable bus distance. Your city may even have discount bus tickets already available if your protest is happening at a government building (which is an ideal place to protest). There are people at protests who go not for any protest cause itself, but to make sure people get water and don't die from heat stroke. Fill a water bottle before you go.

No, going to protest on the cheap won't get you an airplane ticket and a free lunch. Pack a sandwich if you want to eat. If you can't afford that, ask your fellow protestors for some crackers or something. Remember that your fellow protestors are on your side, and will actually help you.. if you ask them. They're not psychic.

> I've never flown a helicopter, but when someone puts one in a tree I can still say "dude fucked it up." and be correct.

Can you? What if it was a SAR helicopter that was given bad flight relay information and got caught in a storm? Helicopters sometimes crash, and it's not always the fault of the pilot.

> but when the topic at hand is decidedly uncivil, for example taking people's children and imprisoning them at the border, then I believe an uncivil response is warranted.

It's possible to disagree with a situation, be civil, and take time to understand it. I've spoken to the people who work in those "prisons" with children, and most of them are dramatically against the wall, but also recognize when a kid who is 8 shows up at an international border alone, they need to go somewhere.

Again, that doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but throwing stones at the people who are at least trying to help isn't productive.

6. coldte+ei[view] [source] 2019-08-08 14:48:48
>>hos234+(OP)
>There are people who build hospitals and there are people who stand around talking about who should build hospitals.

And the latter are even more important, especially if we don't use a contrived example of the hospital and naively assume "more is better", but extend it to other things people can build where building them is controversial and/or more is not necessarily better. (And even for hospitals, there's the question of how to build them, where to build them, and how to run them).

The people that just "charge ahead" and build are marginally useless. Given the funds, one can hire workers in almost any part of the world to build a hospital to spec. That's the easy part.

Getting the funds, knowing why, how, when, for whom, etc you want to build X, whether X is good, how close it should be to other Xes, whether we really need more Xes, and what's the opportunity cost of building an X, all those are the difficult and important questions.

And those are clarified in discussion.

replies(1): >>jacque+iz
◧◩
7. hos234+7j[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-08-08 14:55:08
>>FussyZ+Q3
I should have phrased that better. Didn't mean only doers matter. People who bring attention to things matter. But there is a line above which discussion does not matter. And I think news/social media and internet forums push things way over that line to the point where people are recognizing all the jibber jabber going on isn't translating to outcomes.

In the context of the linked article, HN for example could easily shut down 2 days a week and Planet Earth will continue to spin. And maybe the mods(and the addicted readers) will get a break from what appears to be a thankless energy draining job.

◧◩
8. jacque+iz[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-08-08 16:48:15
>>coldte+ei
Having a hospital is one thing, staffing it and getting it equipped quite another.
9. wasdff+QA[view] [source] 2019-08-08 16:58:40
>>hos234+(OP)
The internet selects for these low info, useless discussions because outrage is profitable. The longer you rant on facebook/twitter, the longer you are on the site looking at ads.

Most problems in the world require a substantial technical background to fully appreciate well enough to have a relevant opinion, but people blindly comment anyway because they better understand the outrage on the internet than the actual real world issue.

10. tlb+yN[view] [source] 2019-08-08 18:13:12
>>hos234+(OP)
OK, but hospitals don't get built by people waking up in the morning, buying some bricks and stacking them up. Hospitals (and anything else worthwhile) require a lot of people with specialized skills to work together while other people make food and roads and schools and so on. Some amount of talking is required to coordinate it all.

Is the fraction of people who actually build things small? An economist would say no, we're at nearly full employment. To the extent that too many people are doing non-worthwhile things in their job, the solution to that might involve more talking, not less.

[go to top]