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Obviously the invitation is meant to show that trans women are welcome. That's... moving, but I think it will only cause trouble. First you create a place especially for women, which is needed because like the announcement says, many women don't feel welcome, comfortable or even safe in online discussions that tend to escalate to shouting matches, typically among men (since it's the women leaving). Then you invite in to the community people who have been socialised as men, have grown up as men, have spent most of their professional lives as men and who have often contributed to exactly the kind of working environment that makes womens' lives difficult as tech workers. That's defeating the whole point of a "community where the core culture [will be] set by women".
I'm not trying to say that trans women are not women (I mean, duh; I'm one. Of both). But it should be kept in mind that most of us carry a great deal of baggage from the time we lived as men. Baggage that's very hard to get rid of and that many of us are not even aware of. In light of this, I think this big-hearted invitation to everyone who identifies as a woman, should be revised to something more cautious. I'd think, if someone "identifies as a woman" and works in technology, they'd respond to an invitation to just "women" anyway.
To be perfectly clear, I'm totally not joining and I invite any other trans women who read this to think very carefully before doing so. Just think of all the times you had a civilised and polite debate with other trans women about trans stuff, or about anything.
Societally, we have recently gotten to the point of being able to talk about the importance of having spaces where historically marginalized groups can forge a shared sense of belonging and build up the social support structures that historically less marginalized groups have long enjoyed, but I don't believe we've gotten to the point of being able to have a reasoned debate about edge cases where different groups overlap in some ways, yet diverge in others, along axes some might find incompatible.
I also don't necessarily think that this is for the group leader to solve: this is a process that will take years of successes and blunders, and cause everyone involved to tackle an additional layer of delicate subjects that they may not be ready for. It appears that the group leader has laid out their vision, so for now, the points you raise will likely be addressed in a distributed fashion, in the minds of every member or prospective member, as time goes on.
Thank you for bringing this up, I had many of the same thoughts but it was not my place to say it. I think it is important, though.
This is certainly not the case for all trans women. You may not feel like you need to join a community like this, but I don't think it's fair to then speak for/to the trans community saying that none of us should.
I've heard things similar to what you're saying in the past, but I don't think it holds water. Trans women typically aren't welcome in male-only spaces, because we aren't. Often we aren't welcome in women-only spaces because of opinions like these. Usually there aren't trans-only spaces. It ends up with us being excluded _everywhere_ because of some dubious concept of "socialisation", as if every trans woman has the same experiences such that you can discriminate based on it.
>Just think of all the times you had a civilised and polite debate with other trans women about trans stuff, or about anything.
Often! I've also had civilised and polite debates with men, and been shouted down by cis women. People are people, not just their gender, and while there are trends that's all they are.
I accept that there are differences between trans women, but I believe my description covers a strong majority. I don't speak "for" anyone, of course.
>> It ends up with us being excluded _everywhere_ because of some dubious concept of "socialisation", as if every trans woman has the same experiences such that you can discriminate based on it.
I agree that the concept of "socialisation" is vague and hard to define. The problem is that there are differences in the way men and women behave in a social context and because these differences end up harming women (usually) they need to be addressed. It's easy to see that boys and girls are brought up differently (different toys, different advise, being told off for different things etc) so that's a likely explanation. The alternative is usually a biological explanation about male and female brains generating male and female behaviours. We don't really understand how brains generate any behaviours so I find the biological explanation to be very suspicious. The "socialisation" explanation sounds a lot more straightforward.
Of course there are differences between trans women, in behaviour as well as upbringing. There are differences between men, and between women. Yet, here we are with a tech indudstry that is, in aggregate, unfair or hostile to women, but not to men. You can't predict the behaviour of individuals, but you can make fairly accurate predictions for the kind of behaviours that arise in groups. That's why a community like Leap is needed in the first place.
My concern is that in the case of women-only spaces where trans women are welcome, many trans women will join, responding to their need to belong, which you express and which I feel myself. And that given enough trans women joining, a few of them will eventually display those behavioural traits you can expect from people who grew up like men and that are the traits the community seems to want to keep out.
I agree that feeling excluded from everywhere is harsh and feels extremely unfair. But we can't fix unfair by making more unfair. We can't make the world fair for ourselves by making it more unfair for others. At the end of the day, the way forward is true equality. If trans women are accepted as women, and women are accepted as equal to men (in technology, or anywhere), trans women will not need to feel excluded from anywhere.
But this is not yet the case and I really think that trans women need to give some space to cis women until it is and in order to help make it so.
>> Often!
And thanks for letting me have one, too. My experience is that it happens, but rarely.
It took me a long time to start thinking of the effect of my being trans on others around me. For example, when I get hired in a job, is the fact that I'm perceived as a woman giving me a tiny advantage? Is the interviewer thinking it's cool to have a female SE on the team? And does that mean I'm taking some other woman's place? Or is the fact that I'm trans (which is never discussed in interviews) a convenient compromise between a development team that's 100% men and actually going out and hiring more women?
In trans circles, it was my experience that such questions were brushed aside and never given any consideration. Of course I'm a woman, of course I deserve everything a woman deserves and as a woman I'm subject to discrimination in tech anyway (maybe all the companies that didn't even reply to my applications didn't think it's "cool to have a female SE on the team"). That was the general reaction. Or I was just overthinking things (but I do that for a living).
Currently the only people who even broach the subject of how trans womens' rights could affect cis womens' rights are extremely unpleasant transphobic trolls and that's very unfortunate. We've left the conversation about what claiming our rights does to othes entirely up to the very people who want to take our rights away from us. My comment here is in the context of a half-hearted attempt on my part to reclaim this conversation.
Unfortunately I'm totally rubbish at community building (wouldn't know where to start) so I won't be the one to do it. But it's strange that nobody has thought of it just yet. This is just anecdata but there are a lot of trans women in tech. We should just band together.
I am cis-gendered female and exhibit a lot of conversational traits typically identified as male-patterned. Does that mean I shouldn't be allowed?
Personally I love the idea of allowing trans-women into a woman focused community. Your perspective is going to be unique (and likely uniquely insightful.) You also experience the same discrimination as cis-gendered women if you aren't explicitly identifying as transgendered and may have the same needs for support and understanding related to that discrimination.
Other than those regarding genitalia, cis-women are probably as likely to fail to conform to gender stereotypes as trans-women.
In my experience as a trans woman in tech and very involved in the MN transgender community for many years, is that your perspective is definitely not shared by the majority. I know my argument is just as anecdotal as yours, but I only can recall a couple trans women out of the hundreds I have met through community work that would agree with you. Most of the women I work with absolutely want to join women's spaces and would be interested in Leap or similar industry groups for women. But again, this is anecdotal. Please don't speak for the "majority" of us without backing it up with polling data at minimum.
>> My concern is that in the case of women-only spaces where trans women are welcome, many trans women will join, responding to their need to belong, which you express and which I feel myself. And that given enough trans women joining, a few of them will eventually display those behavioural traits you can expect from people who grew up like men and that are the traits the community seems to want to keep out.
All groups have to manage certain individuals.
In your opinion, how much gendered socialization is enough for a trans woman to be acceptable to be able to join female spaces? ie. At what maximum age do you think they needed to start transition to access women's spaces? If not at all, then how does your socialization argument hold up against those that transition at a very young age? At what point is a woman "fully" socialized in their gendered role and ready to join women's spaces?
Additionally, how should facilitators of said spaces check to make sure the cis women joining had enough gendered socialization to join? Should they accept tomboys? Butch women? Lesbians?
What about trans men who were socialized as a women before transition? Or inter-sexed folk that identify as women?
Should there be any consideration that many trans women end up picking up (effectually) on many of the socializations women receive while growing up?
Socialization has its own issues with essentialism, and often feels stuck in the second-wave feminism of the 70s. No two women share the same experiences. Gendered socialization differs dramatically across intersectional lines and when referenced in such ways often assumes and superimposes affluent, Christian, and white experiences as the majority and proper socialization. Socialization arguments often remind of the No True Scotsman fallacy. Modern intersectional feminism embraces the intersectional identities of women, trans and cis alike (among many other informing aspects).
>> But this is not yet the case and I really think that trans women need to give some space to cis women until it is and in order to help make it so.
Often I find these lines of thought to be thinly veiled attempts at othering trans folk, erasing their identity, and forcing them out of gender spaces entirely. If transgender women are to stay out of women's spaces while not being accepted in men's spaces, where do they belong?
When it comes to gendered groups and spaces, I would maintain that identity should be the deciding factor.
I concede I haven't considered women with atypical behaviours so I'll be honest and say I don't know how to answer your question. My guess is that cis women being a bit confrontational (if I intepret that right) is going to be much less disruptive, or divisive, than trans women doing the same.
>> Personally I love the idea of allowing trans-women into a woman focused community. Your perspective is going to be unique (and likely uniquely insightful.) You also experience the same discrimination as cis-gendered women if you aren't explicitly identifying as transgendered and may have the same needs for support and understanding related to that discrimination.
Thank you for your empowering words, I appreciate them. I hope you're right and that the trans women who join Leap will contribute positively to it.
Personally, I'm not out to my coworkers so yes, I'd benefit from a community like Leap, absolutely. But that can't be just about me (or others like me). If you look at complaints cis women have against trans women, it's all about us thinking only of ourselves and our need to be perceived as women, taking the place of cis women in employment, enjoying resources and structures meant to help cis women etc. The majority of the people who say those things typically turn out to be vicious trolls who don't really care so much about cis women as about hurting trans women. But I have to consider the possibility that in their hatred they have managed to latch on to a nugget of truth: that just by being perceived as any other woman, I end up taking the place of one. And that just shocks me to my core. I transitioned to find myself, not to usurp someone else's place in the world.
So I've decided to be very careful to avoid doing that, if at all possible. And one part of that is staying well away from spaces meant "for women", even if they're explicitly trans-friendly.
And I do think that other trans women should also be just as careful. Expressing your identity can't be done at the cost of others' lives. Well, unless you're Vlad the Impaler.
I'm not speaking for the majority of trans women. I'm speaking of them. So when I say that "my description covers a strong majority of trans women" I mean that the traits I list describe a majority of trans women, in my experience and in my opinion. I don't mean that the trans women I describe in this way would agree with my description of those traits, or that a majority of them would share my views.
If you ask me, because I also have a bit of background in various trans communities, I think the majority of trans women would not accept the traits I ascribe to them. I did warn that my comment would probably be controversial. In trans cirlces, it would most definitely be.
>> Often I find these lines of thought to be thinly veiled attempts at othering trans folk, erasing their identity, and forcing them out of gender spaces entirely. If transgender women are to stay out of women's spaces while not being accepted in men's spaces, where do they belong?
While there is still need for gendered spaces? We belong in our own spaces. Personally, I'd feel a lot safer and not just a lot less awkward in a space meant for trans women than in one meant for cis women, or even all women.
I don't have to speak in the hypothetical. I have actuall been in trans spaces. Once as a representative of my country at a TGEU meeting, which was how I imagine heaven to be, a couple of days where I was between the only people in the world who can really get me, other trans women and men (the few cis people were friendly enough to not spoil it although I wasn't sure why we had to have a cis facilitator, but no matter).
Another time I went to a meeting of an LGBT group at the university were I studied. This was a meeting to discuss trans matters and it was open to everyone, but it was preceded by a closed meeting, only for people who identified as trans. And that was nice also.
Finally, I've been a member of a local support group for trans people, for a couple of years, before I started working and didn't have any time to attend the meetings anymore.
All those were places were I've felt I can really belong and where I don't have to explain anything, although sometimes this had more to do with passing privilege and women with less heteronormative presentation were less welcome, I'm very sad to say.
We need more spaces like that. For trans women in tech (whose numbers are legion, btw) we need a special place just to discuss our very specific needs and experiences. A community for cis women in tech is just not going to be that, I'm afraid.
And that's besides the fact that I fear we'll just end up making things awkward for the cis women also.
Again anecdotally.
>> I mean that the traits I list describe a majority of trans women, in my experience and in my opinion.
Well, here is where the wheels fall off. Prescribing negative male traits to the majority of trans women is beyond the pale. I disagree and find the connotation offensive and transphobic.
>> While there is still need for gendered spaces? We belong in our own spaces.
Again, I disagree, for reasons: 1. Size: The trans population is small, like very small compared to almost all other groups. It would be a greater burden on society to request that all spaces now accommodate unique and private spaces for trans folk, and extrapolated, a different space for flavor of trans. 2. Exclusion and Identity Erasure: Many trans folk (myself included) identify with one of the two binary genders. It is an affront and an erasure of our identities to segregate us from general society. I for one am not looking to wear my trans scarlet letter with pride, thanks.
Now, that is not to say that trans folk should not have access to our own support networks and industry groups. But to claim that we should stay out of the majority groups because we have a different past is offensive, as is the connotation that trans women make cis women uncomfortable. As a passing trans woman, I have been asked to leave trans groups because my "privilege" makes others uncomfortable. In this case, where do I belong? Should I make new industry groups for passing trans women with mixed Irish/German/Greek heritage that enjoy swing dancing and traditional music? Should cis women segregate by ethnicity or by tomboy-ness?
Intersectionality does not imply segregation. Trans women are women, full stop, and should have access to the same groups as cis women.
This is an issue I have been uncomfortably aware for a while. I have never before seen anyone comment on it.
Let me suggest that your awareness of it makes you someone I would prefer to have around in a women's group.
I say this as someone who has been burned on this very issue, repeatedly so. But I would prefer to seek a path forward for both cishet women and trans women, one that victimizes neither. That path won't be found without people like you.
If Leap is something you feel would benefit you, I hope you will reconsider your position and join it. If it doesn't work out to your satisfaction for any reason, you can always stop participating.