zlacker

[parent] [thread] 19 comments
1. mcv+(OP)[view] [source] 2017-12-09 17:41:10
I'm surprised these clauses manage to prevent benchmarks. Surely someone with no Oracle contract can still publish them? Leak a benchmark, benchmark on someone else's system, whatever. It shouldn't be too hard to publish a benchmark for which this clause can't be enforced.
replies(3): >>chubot+z1 >>manart+b4 >>slanty+C6
2. chubot+z1[view] [source] 2017-12-09 17:56:38
>>mcv+(OP)
How would they get the software legally?

Oracle would probably sue them for piracy or something. If you bought it, they would probably say you violated the agreement and no longer have a valid license.

Not saying it's right, but since it's commercial software, they can probably play some tricks. It's one of among many reasons to use commerical software where possible.

replies(3): >>paulry+g2 >>nawitu+Y2 >>userbi+U6
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3. paulry+g2[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-09 18:05:31
>>chubot+z1
Did you mean "reasons not to use..."?
replies(1): >>chubot+Oe
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4. nawitu+Y2[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-09 18:13:53
>>chubot+z1
docker pull sath89/oracle-12c?

In sane countries licenses don't have magic powers. I'm allowed to publish a benchmark no matter what Oracle things.

replies(1): >>jimnot+6r
5. manart+b4[view] [source] 2017-12-09 18:25:36
>>mcv+(OP)
It's in the EULA–simply using the software is enough to be bound to that term.

Sure, the benchmarks can be leaked, published anonymously, etc…but the term is enough to prevent an academic from publishing it as a peer-reviewed, credible piece of research.

replies(1): >>virapt+Co
6. slanty+C6[view] [source] 2017-12-09 18:51:59
>>mcv+(OP)
I find that with contracts in general, lawyers will throw in all sorts of clauses that may or may not be enforceable and hope they stick. That's why they add something to get you to agree "if one part is found to be invalid or unenforceable all the other parts are still valid".
replies(2): >>ouid+h8 >>user59+Gc
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7. userbi+U6[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-09 18:55:54
>>chubot+z1
You can legally get Oracle DB completely free, for "development":

http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/indexes/downloads/index.ht...

http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/licenses/standard-license-...

Of course there's the anti-benchmarking clause, but other than that, they offer the downloads free (as in beer).

replies(1): >>emmela+M82
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8. ouid+h8[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-09 19:07:43
>>slanty+C6
I don't think that clause is generally enforceable.
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9. user59+Gc[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-09 19:49:47
>>slanty+C6
>>> if one part is found to be invalid or unenforceable all the other parts are still valid

Also an invalid clause. They don't get to decide what is valid or not, that's up to the judge.

replies(1): >>jacque+ae
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10. jacque+ae[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-09 20:05:50
>>user59+Gc
They're called severability clauses. Courts frequently uphold them independently of finding other unenforceable or invalid clauses. Any contract written by a lawyer worth their salt has one and it's usually based on wording that has been tested in a court.

I am not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice.

replies(1): >>user59+Oh
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11. chubot+Oe[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-09 20:13:39
>>paulry+g2
Oops yes! Unfortunately HN expires the ability to edit the comment after awhile.
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12. user59+Oh[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-09 20:43:55
>>jacque+ae
Still, it's invalid.

It's up to the judge to decide what is valid and not. The court has the power to decide on each clause individually and the contract as a whole.

It's the normal outcome that when one minor clause is deemed invalid, only that clause is dismissed, not the whole contract.

It doesn't costs anything to write it down to clarify. That's exactly why it's written in every standard contract. There could be a different jurisdiction somewhere one day that decides to invalidate entire contracts by default for any stupid reason, I don't know of one in the western countries but I suppose it's possible.

replies(1): >>jacque+pj
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13. jacque+pj[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-09 20:58:41
>>user59+Oh
It's up to the judge to interpret law, which includes following precedent set in previous cases. Severability clauses have been upheld, or struck down, in a number of different circumstances which can be compared to new examples.

It is reasonably predictable for most situations how a judge would rule, which is why contracts have common boilerplate.

replies(1): >>user59+ck
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14. user59+ck[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-09 21:09:13
>>jacque+pj
Actually, I will rephrase, the clause appears to have no effect.

In the event that one part of the contract is nullified, it's up to the court to determine if that modification will nullify the contract or not, it depends on the circumstances.

The presence of the clause cannot prevent to cancel the contract, the absence of the clause doesn't mean that the contract is cancelled if any clause is found invalid.

replies(1): >>jacque+rk
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15. jacque+rk[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-09 21:12:16
>>user59+ck
If I want to completely escape a contract, as opposed to only part of it, I care very much about whether a severability clause will be enforced.
replies(1): >>user59+0l
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16. user59+0l[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-09 21:17:56
>>jacque+rk
(I rephrased the last message)

If you want to escape a contract, you need to go to court and make a case that the contract should be nullified.

If you want to cancel a part of a contract, you need to go to court and make a case that a part of the contract should be nullified.

They are 2 completely different things. The clause is irrelevant, it's not gonna change your future strategy.

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17. virapt+Co[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-09 22:06:46
>>manart+b4
I think what the OP meant was that you accept the contract and the EULA when you buy/install the product. Anyone connecting to the database and using it does not have to accept the same.
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18. jimnot+6r[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-09 22:40:11
>>nawitu+Y2
Now I am intrigued. Do you have a benchmark you could share?
replies(1): >>gsich+wQ
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19. gsich+wQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-10 05:47:27
>>jimnot+6r
probably not. it is still a lot of work.
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20. emmela+M82[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-12-11 04:21:30
>>userbi+U6
But you have to register.

If you publish the benchmark, Oracle will sue you for obtaining the software illegitimately or sue you for not conforming to the license.

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