zlacker

[parent] [thread] 42 comments
1. jsdalt+(OP)[view] [source] 2010-07-23 20:05:24
There's one single paragraph in this entire article that addresses the root of the problem:

> In 1970 the proportion of Americans behind bars was below one in 400, compared with today’s one in 100. Since then, the voters, alarmed at a surge in violent crime, have demanded fiercer sentences. Politicians have obliged. New laws have removed from judges much of their discretion to set a sentence that takes full account of the circumstances of the offence. Since no politician wants to be tarred as soft on crime, such laws, mandating minimum sentences, are seldom softened. On the contrary, they tend to get harder.

On top of that, you also have an entrenched set of special interests who benefit from the status quo (police unions, prison guard unions, private prisons, etc.), so the pressure on politicians is from two sides.

So how do you "solve" a problem that special interests, along with a sizable majority of the voting population, have no interest whatsoever in solving?

Without a massive culture shift, you don't.

replies(8): >>nhnifo+M1 >>Softwa+22 >>notadd+o2 >>ugh+R4 >>tmsh+u5 >>madair+s7 >>isnote+Jh >>thomas+pi
2. nhnifo+M1[view] [source] 2010-07-23 20:51:56
>>jsdalt+(OP)
How do you start a massive culture shift without a really infectious idea? you don't.
replies(1): >>woodal+p7
3. Softwa+22[view] [source] 2010-07-23 20:59:20
>>jsdalt+(OP)
Another piece (brought up in the comments) that warrants investigation is the role of privatization of prisons. With that, you have private organizations lobbying the government to increase their bottom lines, and politicians get to look tough on crime as a nice bonus.

The part that scares me the most is that is may be impossible to live in the US without breaking some law. When everybody is a criminal, the state gets too much power.

replies(1): >>pmcgin+r2
4. notadd+o2[view] [source] 2010-07-23 21:06:31
>>jsdalt+(OP)
Your hypothesis isn't the only plausible one. Have you considered that more crime = more inmates, sentences aside?

First: since you go to prison after the crime, the inmate population size should be a trailing indicator of the crime rate. More serious crimes affect the prison population for a long period, since their sentences are longer.

Second: take a look at these graphs, and how dramatically they shoot up around 1965:

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=murder+USA

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=rape+USA

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=crime+USA

replies(4): >>eurocl+03 >>cabala+x3 >>btilly+h4 >>nhebb+K9
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5. pmcgin+r2[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-23 21:07:28
>>Softwa+22
It's easy to blame privitization, but large public sector unions can be just as influential. As a politican I'd be much more afraid of angering, say, the AFT than I would be of any single private company.

Just because someone you don't like is clamoring for more money doesn't mean no one was clamoring for money before.

replies(1): >>chadma+g4
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6. eurocl+03[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-23 21:21:01
>>notadd+o2
Why does the data collection only start in 1960? The fact that the rates shoot up five years after they start collecting data might just mean that for the first five years, the data collection system was just getting ramped up.
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7. cabala+x3[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-23 21:36:46
>>notadd+o2
All of those graphs show peaks in the early 1990s and a decline after then. That's long enough that if the number of crimes was the main causal factor, prison numbers would be going down by now.
replies(1): >>gndlf1+VF1
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8. chadma+g4[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-23 21:56:09
>>pmcgin+r2
You think the teachers' union is more powerful than any single company? that is a joke. If teachers had the power of the top dogs in the finance, pharma, defense or energy industries (to take a few obvious examples) have they'd all make 7 figures.
replies(3): >>jfarme+w5 >>anamax+h7 >>scrod+9J
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9. btilly+h4[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-23 21:56:17
>>notadd+o2
Demographics are a major factor in the increase you cite. A disproportionate amount of crime is caused by men in their late teens and early twenties. The Baby Boom caused a rapid increase in that, with predictable results.

Another factor is greatly improved reporting. Rape in particular used to be very poorly reported, and this has improved a lot as the social stigma against reporting it lessened. The shape long rise from the 60s to 1990 was certainly strongly affected by that.

A number of reasons exist for the recent drop in very violent crime that the murder graph shows. Demographics are surprisingly only a small part of it. Most of it was the result of public health efforts that reduced the incidence of lead poisoning. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07... for more. A much smaller factor which many have heard of was the legalization of abortion. While this has an effect, and was popularized in Freakonomics, the effect was much less than the benefit of reduced lead poisoning.

10. ugh+R4[view] [source] 2010-07-23 22:14:41
>>jsdalt+(OP)
US incarceration are ridiculous and irrational. Why are European countries and Japan so different, though? They also have elected politicians and special interest groups, what’s going on there?

I think it mostly has something to do with the directness of democracy, not with a difference in opinion or mentality.

Democracy in the US is very local and direct, politicians can actually be punished by the voters for not being tough on crime. That’s not so easy in (for example) Germany. You vote predominantly for parties – the whole package – not politicians. Something as comparatively unimportant as criminal law is going to get swamped by all the other issues, hardly anybody will focus on the particular weak spots of one lowly member of parliament. That would be a waste of effort.

Moreover all decisions about the criminal law are made on the federal level, in commissions full of experts (a lot of academics: criminologists, psychologists …). There is no reason for politicians in those commissions not to follow their recommendations. Voters will hardly ever notice what they decide, it is going to get lost under all the other issues.

You can actually be successful as a German politician who has a image for being tough on crime on the very local level (in, say, a city state), but on that level you can do no more than strictly enforce the rules that already exist. That will hardly change incarceration rates, though.

You don’t need a culture shift, you need a different political system :)

replies(6): >>dieter+s5 >>_polit+T6 >>rsheri+Yi >>w00pla+Sj >>kingka+Jl >>maskli+ur
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11. dieter+s5[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-23 22:35:09
>>ugh+R4
Upvoted. However, a different political system would itself necessitate a cultural shift.
replies(1): >>ugh+57
12. tmsh+u5[view] [source] 2010-07-23 22:35:44
>>jsdalt+(OP)
Well said. And massive culture shifts are hard to get started on account of the inertia involved. However, piggy-backing on other culture shifts already in progress is easier.

This may sound overly idealistic. But a technology shift that is clear about openness and transparency of information, and which gradually supports voting in efficient, electronic ways (with checks and balances that prevent mob-like behavior) could help solve these problems. Could eventually be what solves a lot of this. Obama may be remembered not so much for being the first African American president, but the first one elected with social media. Information wants to be free and networks are fast.

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13. jfarme+w5[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-23 22:36:31
>>chadma+g4
Nobody is talking about teachers. But in California the Prison Guard Union holds immense sway.
replies(1): >>gruseo+vd
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14. _polit+T6[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-23 23:24:42
>>ugh+R4
Actually, the incumbency rate for the House of Representatives has been well over 90%, due to corporate financing, redrawing districts, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_stagnation_in_the...

As for Germany, it seems there's a lot more political choice, even at the top levels. Due to a greater diversity of parties, which more accurately reflects people's opinions than the US's two-party system. In my view, the US isn't particularly democratic, and anyway all of these nations have top-down "democracies."

replies(2): >>ugh+v7 >>stretc+9f
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15. ugh+57[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-23 23:29:41
>>dieter+s5
Sure. I was being facetious. Lowering incarceration rates in the US is probably a hard problem which would need all kinds of shifts.
replies(1): >>patric+ea
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16. anamax+h7[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-23 23:40:38
>>chadma+g4
> You think the teachers' union is more powerful than any single company? that is a joke. If teachers had the power of the top dogs in the finance, pharma, defense or energy industries (to take a few obvious examples) have they'd all make 7 figures.

Half of CA's budget goes to education, by constitutional amendment.

What industry approaches that?

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17. woodal+p7[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-23 23:45:42
>>nhnifo+M1
A better question, I think, is "how does something become infectious"?

An idea alone is not going to sway the masses. An idea with proper execution and backing might. Think of it like education- a great follow along would be Plato's cave. You can bring one person into the idea-out into the world- but when they go back the majority still cannot understand what they are saying. Because of this you must convince small portions of the population either by education or force so that they may spread this new knowledge.

How do you spread said idea? By using human nature as a weapon. A powerful weapon would be confirmation basis. Get the powerful to back your idea- with money, fancy words, anything- and you can get most people to follow along. The weak depend on the powerful for survival- this could be reversed, but not likely to ever happen(see uprising).

Even if you are able to infect people with your ideologies you now have the problem of, what if this idea was the wrong? Infections ideas, just as viri in nature, are hard to cure once there is an epidemic.

So your idea does not need to be infectious or catchy or even right, it just needs to be adopted. Once you establish a user base you can then use that base to your advantage in order to spread your idea.

Interesting reads. Some have nothing really to do with what I said, just allow for a better understanding of what I mean. I am all for bad ideas, because without them how would we know the good ones?

[1] http://www.prisonexp.org/ [2] http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment [4] opr.princeton.edu/papers/opr0901.pdf [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_momentum [6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_momentum [7] http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/194270145.... [8] http://core.ecu.edu/psyc/wuenschk/stathelp/Dichot-Not.doc

18. madair+s7[view] [source] 2010-07-23 23:47:44
>>jsdalt+(OP)
Before throwing our hands up in despair we should consider that some simple reforms of the prosecution system in the U.S. would make a huge difference. There are a lot of shakedowns going on in the U.S. system (it's hard to call it a justice system at this point). But a wide-ranging list of abuses of power feature prosecutors actively participating. Prosecutors in the U.S. have a lot of incentives for corruption and very few safeguards.

The problem is in the U.S. a lot of objectively unethical activities and policies are not considered unethical. A lot of horrendous official behavior passes by without people call it what it is: Corruption.

Of course it's not just prosecutors, it's amazing sometimes to see judges, lawyers, and many other public officials participating in cases in which they clearly have stake in the outcome without people calling it out with the C-word. My conjecture is just that reforming the prosecutorial system would have a big effect on the quality of the overall system and may not be as hard as some other approaches.

Regardless I've been in despair about this for a long time myself, but more recently I've started coming to believe that shifting the ethical goal posts in this country just by using a small list of very simple and objective guidelines and focusing on key centers of corruption.

Ethics are not universal, or at least are not proven to be universal. They are a social construction. It's clear, as others have said, that it's society that needs to change. How about starting by more of us being jerks in the level and ferocity with which we decry unethical behavior large and small and place our highest priority for social and political activism within the U.S. (and many other places) on that.

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19. ugh+v7[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-23 23:49:28
>>_polit+T6
Is that the same in the state’s legislative bodies? I don’t know how relevant federal legislative bodies are in this discussion since criminal law is mainly a responsibility of the individual states, not the federal government.

America is a huge country, it’s not exactly surprising that you get all those effects you have on the federal level. That, at least to me, seems to be somewhat softened by a particular strong brand of federalism (in the European sense, meaning strong and independent local and state governments).

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20. nhebb+K9[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-24 01:38:32
>>notadd+o2
The Freakonomics guys correlated the drop in crime in the 90's to the legalization of abortion in the 70's, and others think that the drop in crime is a byproduct of the tougher three strikes rules states have adopted. I'm just speculating, of course, but I wonder whether the internet has been a factor in the drop off. Less boredom = less crime?
replies(1): >>barry-+Nc2
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21. patric+ea[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-24 02:02:59
>>ugh+57
If "direct democracy" was so powerful, how come they keep making laws against p2p or legalization of weed given that most people are against those laws?
replies(2): >>Ardit2+vk >>Qz+Kq
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22. gruseo+vd[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-24 04:26:49
>>jfarme+w5
There was a superb NPR investigative piece on that maybe a year ago. I remember being shocked at the guards' union's role in creating the problem. And to think that California prisons just a generation ago were so good -- recidivism so low -- that other countries were sending delegations to find out how they did it.
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23. stretc+9f[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-24 05:55:35
>>_polit+T6
I agree. And choice is even greater in Switzerland. You and your neighbors can even move your neighborhood to a different cantons.

These laws come from DC and the states have lost a lot of the power they had initially. The federal government had a list of powers. They call them the enumerated powers. The states had everything else.

And the citizens could leave a state if they didn't like it. A lot easier to do than leaving the country.

Which is why local laws are not really that oppressive, even if they are. But federal law is all encompassing and difficult for you to influence. They can pretty much ignore the individual and usually do, except when they need something to grandstand about.

replies(1): >>shalma+jL
24. isnote+Jh[view] [source] 2010-07-24 08:53:02
>>jsdalt+(OP)
You say: "The voters, alarmed at at surge in violent crime ...", this can be the reason that explain more people in jail, and I think is a sound one. But this implies that more laws are not the cause but the consequence of a raise in violent crime so the title is misleading. You should say in the title: There are more people in jail because there is a rise in violent crimes and I would be happy with this.
25. thomas+pi[view] [source] 2010-07-24 09:37:02
>>jsdalt+(OP)
It would solve your problem if you moved to Europe.
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26. rsheri+Yi[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-24 10:24:23
>>ugh+R4
Germany doesn't have the kind of crime problems America has, so naturally it's not going to be a big issue.
replies(1): >>ugh+tk
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27. w00pla+Sj[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-24 11:51:23
>>ugh+R4
> Why are European countries and Japan so different, though?

For a Japanese person, the conviction of a crime (and the shame it brings) is much worse than the jail sentence. If you are convicted of a crime, your family usually breaks off all ties with you.

Other countries (such as Singapore or China) has laws that are more harsh - which ensures that people do not break it (e.g. execution for drug offenses instead of imprisonment). If a person receives corporal punishment for vandalism, he will quickly stop without progressing towards further crimes (or run back to the USA with his tail between his legs).

replies(1): >>neilk+7q
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28. ugh+tk[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-24 12:22:34
>>rsheri+Yi
There are many people in US prisons who wouldn’t be in jail if they did the same thing in Germany (e.g. no three strikes law or mandatory sentencing in Germany).

The prison population might still be higher without those laws because of a difference in crime rate – but not quite as high.

replies(1): >>rsheri+lo
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29. Ardit2+vk[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-24 12:23:47
>>patric+ea
I do not think most people are in favour of legalizing weed if by most people you mean the general population and not the teenagers.
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30. kingka+Jl[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-24 13:34:02
>>ugh+R4
The US is still the wild west in many ways.
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31. rsheri+lo[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-24 15:07:04
>>ugh+tk
And if America had Germany's laws, there would be much higher crime rates. America did have soft crime laws before the 1990s, and it did have much higher crime rates. That's why the US got tough on crime and Germany didn't.

The countries just aren't comparable.

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32. neilk+7q[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-24 15:56:00
>>w00pla+Sj
Oh no, there's no crime in Japan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuza

It seems to me the harsh punishment of crimes like vandalism is not so much lawfulness as it is about Asian values of group solidarity. When it comes to organized crime, or crime by officials, there's scarcely any need to hide it, since the population is so used to ignoring the misdeeds of the well-connected.

I agree with part of what you said: dishonor is the real punishment. But that's exactly why past a certain point, "getting tough" doesn't work. In the USA, it's so out of proportion now, that in many poor or ethnic minority communities in the USA, the police are perceived as oppressors, not guardians of law and order. And there's no big dishonor in going to jail for a time.

replies(4): >>w00pla+hr >>j_bake+1A >>Confus+1Q >>yalurk+0z3
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33. Qz+Kq[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-24 16:21:05
>>patric+ea
"direct democracy" is really the wrong term. The US has a representative democracy, where the people generally don't vote on laws, but rather vote for politicians who vote for laws. Germany has a similar system, except according to the other poster, people vote more for political parties rather than individual politicians. You could say that the US has more "direct representationalism". In reality, representative democracy is about as undemocratic as a democracy can get.
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34. w00pla+hr[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-24 16:40:13
>>neilk+7q
> Oh no, there's no crime in Japan.

Violent crime in Japan is ridiculously low.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuza

You know that a large percentage of the Yakuza are Korean? In any case, every country has organized crime - yet the Yakuza isn't that violent.

Japan isn't that violent - when you compare things such as murder statistics. I know, I lived in the most violent country and in Japan. Japan is a joke.

> But that's exactly why past a certain point, "getting tough" doesn't work.

The USA never had any really tough laws. I bet that if the USA starts executing major drug dealers (like Singapore), drugs would be a much smaller problem.

> In the USA, it's so out of proportion now, that in many poor or ethnic minority communities in the USA, the police are perceived as oppressors, not guardians of law and order.

The problem in the USA is that it only gets tough when it is too late (e.g. after the 3rd major offense). It should be tough on the first offense (however minor). It is much more difficult to change an established behaviour than a new behaviour - every animal trainer knows this (and it is the same with people).

In any case, the problem with certain ethnic communities is that they value crime (e.g. showing how tough you are) and idolize criminals. That is not the problem of the police - but of the communities. Idolize criminals, dress like criminals and act like criminals and you may be treated as one.

I bet that this idolization of organised crime would disappear if there were chain gangs of criminal members of the community cleaning parks, schools and toilets.

Instead criminals sit in prison doing nothing and each prison becomes a Crime University.

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35. maskli+ur[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-24 16:47:27
>>ugh+R4
> You don’t need a culture shift, you need a different political system :)

A culture shift is also needed. In most of Europe, being tough on crime is not a requirement for being elected.

Furthermore, judiciary usually isn't elected, which avoids judges themselves having to become tough on crime for their next mandate (though they're not immune to hierarchical pressures of course).

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36. j_bake+1A[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-24 22:09:49
>>neilk+7q
One thing to bear in mind about Japan: they put people in mental institutions rather than jails. All it takes to get a person committed against their will is the opinion of one family member and one psychiatrist. In the US, a court order is needed to hold someone against their will for longer than a few days.

Generally speaking, "troublemakers" will go to a mental hospital before going to jail. That's probably why suicides are so high in Japan as well: the mental health system is so overloaded they can't appropriately deal with real problems.

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37. scrod+9J[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-25 05:57:54
>>chadma+g4
For some reason it's recently become trendy to paint teachers' unions as the root of all evil on Hacker News. Who knows which think tank master-minded this particular tidbit of right-wing propaganda, but it's a story line that rings increasingly hollow the more I see it haphazardly inserted into every imaginable public policy debate.

I guess the rating of your comment reflects the result of pointing this out.

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38. shalma+jL[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-25 08:13:52
>>stretc+9f
HOAs are even more local and yet they can have some of the most restrictive regulations around. I don't think your thesis holds.
replies(1): >>yalurk+Ty3
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39. Confus+1Q[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-25 13:10:14
>>neilk+7q

  Oh no, there's no crime in Japan.
He didn´t say that, nor did he imply it. Using this kind of straw man argument polarizes the discussion.
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40. gndlf1+VF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-26 17:50:35
>>cabala+x3
The issues are basically correct on both sides, however there exists the problem fact that while prison populations are - and have been on the increase - actual crime rates have been declining over the past decade plus. This is indicative that while crime has been diminishing, arrests and convictions for existing laws have been increasing disproportionately. The reason for the "peak" in the stats in the 90's is partially due to the discovery by private prison investors and private sector corporations of the federal PIECP program. This program allows partnerships between private sector companies and prison industries to use prison labor to manufacture their products or provide their services, which allows lower overhead and increased profits. In the mid 90's corporate America discovered the program and began to manipulate it. At the same time, prison numbers began to increase while the crime rate declined. This was a direct result of the realization of the amount of labor needed to fully exploit the program.To use the program to the maximum benefit, there had to be a continuous supply of manpower - whether the crime rate was holding steady or in decline.
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41. barry-+Nc2[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-27 09:50:34
>>nhebb+K9
I wouldn't put much weight on that study.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Impact_of_Legalized_Abortio... http://www.isteve.com/abortion.htm http://www.slate.com/id/33569

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42. yalurk+Ty3[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-28 22:59:17
>>shalma+jL
I think you misunderstand the parent post, HOAs are actually a perfect supporting example. Even the most tyrannical HOA rule isn't actually that bad, because you can just move a few blocks away to a less-strick HOA or a house with no HOA at all.

However, if a law is passed at the federal level, you're pretty much stuck with it. With local (or hyper-local like HOAs) you can vote with your feet by moving.

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43. yalurk+0z3[view] [source] [discussion] 2010-07-28 23:04:54
>>neilk+7q
I'd question you even need to qualify your statement about perception of the police as "poor or ethnic minority communities".

My social circle is mostly educated, upper-middle class white males. Most still see police as oppressors, many have had negative experiences with police abusing power & harassing them.

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