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1. matthe+(OP)[view] [source] 2017-07-27 14:05:05
Why do I need a native binary, tens of thousands of lines of code, an app with a massive permissions access to my device...

You don't – but why do you need loading screens, push notifications, or any of that other stuff either?

The web is great in concept for document-oriented information and some application uses. Mobile applications are greater for richer user interfaces and more device integration. They both have their strengths, and I think it's okay to accept that.

replies(3): >>Ajedi3+t3 >>euyyn+W4 >>hn_thr+rd
2. Ajedi3+t3[view] [source] 2017-07-27 14:26:55
>>matthe+(OP)
> loading screens, push notifications

You seem to be laser-focused on this one tiny part of PWAs. There's way more too it than that, like offline support, background sync, etc. Imagine if you could press a button on the page to save that article you're reading for later, and have it available offline next time you need it.

Or what if you could write a comment while offline, and have it be automatically posted next time you have a connection. (Or optionally, have a notification pop-up next time you're online asking if you still want to post it.)

PWAs are just flat out _better_ than existing web apps. It's remarkable to me that so many people seem to be against these incredibly useful features just because the app they're using is web-based rather than native.

replies(3): >>ino+17 >>matthe+re >>s73ver+qY
3. euyyn+W4[view] [source] 2017-07-27 14:34:53
>>matthe+(OP)
I get plenty of push notifications from native apps that I find useful: e-mail, twitter, calendar events, chat. I can block those I don't want. That developers can't write a web app if they want as much as the option is ridiculous.

Well, actually they can, as Twitter has shown. It looks like Apple is trying to pull an Internet Explorer on us though.

replies(1): >>matthe+gf
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4. ino+17[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-07-27 14:47:15
>>Ajedi3+t3
> Imagine if you could press a button on the page to save that article you're reading for later, and have it available offline next time you need it.

This is available on Safari, the same browser the author is bashing and comparing to IE.

And it's synced across macOS and iOS. It's called "reading list". It works with airplane mode and everything.

replies(2): >>Christ+68 >>Ajedi3+D8
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5. Christ+68[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-07-27 14:53:41
>>ino+17
> And it's synced across macOS and iOS. It's called "reading list". It works with airplane mode and everything.

If only we had a standard way to do this...

replies(1): >>interp+4g
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6. Ajedi3+D8[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-07-27 14:56:55
>>ino+17
Yeah, that sounds like a great feature. The thing is though, that feature isn't going to go away just because PWAs are a thing. The only difference with PWAs would be that sites would _also_ have the option of building offline support into the application itself rather than having to rely on one specific browser to handle that feature for them.

Not to mention PWAs would allow for more complex offline features Safari doesn't support, like syncing the front page of a news site and all associated articles, or automatically downloading new articles as soon as they're posted.

7. hn_thr+rd[view] [source] 2017-07-27 15:30:00
>>matthe+(OP)
Wouldn't you at least consider this a useful use case: Purchase a flight online on a website, but then get a push notification if there is a flight change? Why should we force a user to download an app to support that use case.
replies(1): >>jachee+rf
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8. matthe+re[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-07-27 15:36:26
>>Ajedi3+t3
PWAs are just flat out _better_ than existing web apps. It's remarkable to me that so many people seem to be against these incredibly useful features just because the app they're using is web-based rather than native.

I think that's where we'll have to disagree in some sense.

Adding features to the web platform will of course mean that web applications have access to more features. Some of those are great – I'm really glad we have geolocation, for example.

The trade-off is that every feature added to the platform incurs cost and complexity. Trading these off is important; what is the point in web apps that do everything native apps do, but in a somewhat less good way?

There are obviously pros and cons here, and I'm not convinced that the use cases for more complexity are beneficial enough to justify it.

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9. matthe+gf[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-07-27 15:40:28
>>euyyn+W4
I don't agree with this.

Web applications are fine, and have their place. I'd argue that place is not as frequently-used, heavily interactive applications; native apps exist for that, and are better in most ways.

This is the thing – some publishers insist on using their stupid application when all I want to do is browse some content. Other publishers insist I use their shitty JS-HTML-Hybrid nonsense because they are too stingy to develop proper applications. I wish we could learn to more effective use technologies in the right places.

replies(1): >>euyyn+XF
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10. jachee+rf[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-07-27 15:41:48
>>hn_thr+rd
Why not just use SMS instead? It's timely, and it works even if the target device is in an overcrowded airport and can't get mobile data.
replies(1): >>hn_thr+Yx3
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11. interp+4g[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-07-27 15:44:39
>>Christ+68
> If only we had a standard way to do this...

Well it seems like either each and every website could build offline support and background sync into their site, or you could use a browser that does it for you.

In the former case, if you rely on sites integrating it, you could be frustrated when some sites do not implement background sync and offline support (or do it badly).

Having the browser do it seems simpler. Especially given the real world use cases for this feature.

(I'm not against having these technologies on the web. Just seems more sensible for a browser to do your reading list — just like it manages your tabs.)

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12. euyyn+XF[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-07-27 18:16:39
>>matthe+gf
Why try to dictate what developer tools are available to frequently-used, heavily interactive apps, vs the other types?

> This is the thing – some publishers insist on using their stupid application when all I want to do is browse some content.

That's exactly the problem PWAs solve. Those publishers want some features that on iOS are only available to native apps, and so have to make the experience suck for Apple users by using an installed native app instead of a web app. Both publishers and users have an aligned interest there for PWAs, which goes against Apple's own interest.

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13. s73ver+qY[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-07-27 20:22:30
>>Ajedi3+t3
"You seem to be laser-focused on this one tiny part of PWAs."

We're laser focused on the annoying parts that we know will be abused to death.

"Imagine if you could press a button on the page to save that article you're reading for later, and have it available offline next time you need it."

Most browsers already do this.

"PWAs are just flat out _better_ than existing web apps. It's remarkable to me that so many people seem to be against these incredibly useful features just because the app they're using is web-based rather than native."

Because we already have native apps to do these things. I don't want websites to do these things. I want a website to be a website.

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14. hn_thr+Yx3[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-07-29 01:27:52
>>jachee+rf
For privacy reasons, some users would prefer not to give phone numbers. From a provider perspective, sms would become a significant cost if you're sending millions of texts, while push is essentially free.
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