zlacker

[parent] [thread] 21 comments
1. sambe+(OP)[view] [source] 2016-01-24 12:12:21
A recent Cochrane review found very little high quality evidence in either direction:

http://www.cochrane.org/CD011269/DEPRESSN_light-therapy-prev...

It's not clear to me why light therapy is considered as a well-researched treatment.

replies(5): >>Loic+C2 >>moron4+I3 >>petra+J4 >>foolru+u5 >>chilli+P7
2. Loic+C2[view] [source] 2016-01-24 13:42:39
>>sambe+(OP)
From the review, they found 2986 unique papers on the subject, they then assessed 91 papers from the 2986. From these 91, only 1 had a rigorous double blind testing but on only 46 people. The exposures for the light source was 2500 lux, IR light and no special treatment. The results were not significant.

So, lot-researched but maybe not well-enough researched.

replies(2): >>ekianj+q3 >>bradle+G3
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3. ekianj+q3[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-24 14:06:01
>>Loic+C2
In other words, the statistical power of such studies is so low, that it's like social science at best: a galore of false positive over true positive effects.
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4. bradle+G3[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-24 14:14:23
>>Loic+C2
How do you go about blinding a study which does or does not shine a bright light in subject's faces?
replies(1): >>Menger+94
5. moron4+I3[view] [source] 2016-01-24 14:14:40
>>sambe+(OP)
I'd put a black crow's feather behind my ear if I thought it would help me get through winter.

In other words, placebo effect is still an effect. The treatment being chemically vs. psychologicaly responsible for that isn't a concern for the subject, only the researcher.

replies(1): >>ekianj+r6
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6. Menger+94[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-24 14:24:29
>>bradle+G3
I'm guessing you vary the intensity and spectrum of the light. If the treatment doesn't show a dose-response curve of some kind, then it probably just doesn't work.

Standard academic disclaimer applies: This isn't my field of study, and I'm sure there are many subtle mistakes in what I just said.

replies(1): >>tacos+F4
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7. tacos+F4[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-24 14:33:41
>>Menger+94
A quick Google confirms this: they use either an identical-looking light with a different response, or a different light altogether. "Here's a light, here's a sugar pill, log your mood please..."

As silly as that all sounds, it's already a million times better than what this guy did. He took the "if a little is ineffective a LOT will be better" approach and built a damn lighthouse in his living room. And if the goal is a DIY project and a blog post, OF COURSE you'll feel better after "your treatment." It's approaching group therapy at that point. There's a lot of this crap on HN lately.

replies(3): >>anaraz+b8 >>dota_f+qg >>Pyxl10+Ii
8. petra+J4[view] [source] 2016-01-24 14:34:25
>>sambe+(OP)
About systematic reviews and Cochrane : do they manage do see if there's a reasonable effect on a small group of people ? doesn't it get lost in the statistical analysis ?
9. foolru+u5[view] [source] 2016-01-24 14:54:26
>>sambe+(OP)
Add to that The Influence of Color on Physiological Response, by S. Freiders, S. Lee, D. Statz, and T. Kim:

“According to our analysis, the change in neural activity and heart rate between colored flowers and the grey-scaled flowers was insignificant.”

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10. ekianj+r6[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-24 15:13:39
>>moron4+I3
The problem is that placebo effect is usually close to nil, when it even exists. Most of the time what is actually happening is regression to the mean, not placebo efficacy.
11. chilli+P7[view] [source] 2016-01-24 15:42:02
>>sambe+(OP)
My contribution to anecdata is this:

Parents bought me a 180W fluorescent (therefore 10800 to 18000 Lumens according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy#Examples_2 ) anti-SAD lamp.

Stupidly, I used it as an evening lamp instead of anti-SAD. I had serious troubles getting to sleep for an entire year. Typically took 1-3 hours. Blamed coffee, stress, etc. Got blackout curtains, earplugs, cooled room temp, reduced coffee, etc. When I made the connection b/t falling asleep and the anti-SAD lamp, I stopped using it altogether and almost instantly started falling asleep rapidly.

So I conclude my 10k-18k lumen lamp stimulated my awake cycle by about 1-3 hours. My suggestion therefore is: use the lamp at either end of the day in winter: just before sunrise and just after sunset. And certainly to shut it off 3 hours before bedtime. In practice this is tricky because the "unwanted dark hours" are 4:30pm to 7:30pm which is: at work, my commute home and first hour at home. So I need three lights, including one in the car?!

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12. anaraz+b8[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-24 15:47:59
>>tacos+F4
So, it's crap that he's done something that made him feel better. Yea.

It's not science. And yes, he very well might feel better just be because he did something he believes in. But I don't see why that warrants a response like yours.

replies(1): >>tacos+U9
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13. tacos+U9[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-24 16:19:42
>>anaraz+b8
The article is entitled "You need more lumens" so he's already confronting me. The first paragraph disparages all existing commercial products and states, matter-of-factly that his approach is the one true way. The second paragraph states "Clinical studies have found that bright light treats SAD effectively" which is also a stretch.

The article contains no research or sources except for a single Wikipedia link. It contains much hubris, yet no author's name. It does however contain numerous affiliate links. The article warrants a response like mine because the article is bullshit.

replies(2): >>shiven+1c >>nitrog+Ht
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14. shiven+1c[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-24 17:03:06
>>tacos+U9
Well, do you need more lumens? No, seriously. Do you?

If not, then what is your point? Are you a SAD researcher with training and experience working with SAD? Or are you a SAD sufferer or have first-hand experience with SAD?

If the answer to those questions is no, then you are starting to sound no different from the arrogant ignoramuses who think people with depression should just "get over it".

This is HN and regardless of the scientific soundness of the post, it is a nifty hack. I might even make it. And use the affiliate links to show my appreciation of the person who made and shared the project. What's wrong with that?

Perhaps you should question your assumptions before calling bullshit. What else are you missing out on in life with such an attitude?

replies(1): >>choose+dk
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15. dota_f+qg[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-24 18:10:36
>>tacos+F4
I don't think that would actually be a million times better.

If we want to get to the reality where confidence in the efficacy of things is well-founded on rigorous experimentation and analysis, then we need to get there, one step at a time. Instead of tearing people down and saying that their efforts to improve themselves is crap, you could be offering constructive criticism. Even just bring up one question that would have made it a better experiment, so that when a reader here decides to copy him, they can do it better. Maybe they'll even share their personal experience and propagate more experimentation? If enough people do that, maybe collectively we'll one day have the interest and funding to have better studies done.

Would you rather he have not done the build, not shared it with the internet? Maybe he could have been more like the status quo and consumed someone else's product, quietly?

This post and your post yesterday where you argued 2700K screen temperature late in ones day is NOT less straining than 5800K, because if that were true, movie theatres would play all their movies with screens at 2700K... makes me think you're not really interested in people improving their quality of life, you just want to argue.

replies(2): >>tacos+Bi >>DenisM+Xr
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16. tacos+Bi[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-24 18:41:05
>>dota_f+qg
Author anonymously makes unsupported claims, disparages competing products, provides no science, and wrote the post for profit. Nothing can be built on this, because his work is built on sand. "Type up a blog post" is not the important part of the scientific method. Pointing out pseudoscience and invalid methods and data may be the most constructive criticism of all.

Enthusiasm is great. Enthusiasm masquerading as medical treatment is not.

replies(1): >>jschwa+fk
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17. Pyxl10+Ii[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-24 18:44:26
>>tacos+F4
It seems logical and reasonable to me that humans will be affected by how much daylight there is and how bright it is. Imagine if the earth began to recede from the sun, such that every day gradually became shorter and dimmer. (Set aside climate and crop disaster and consider the psychological effect on humans.) Humans have a daylight-triggered circadian rhythm: at night the body produces melatonin which promotes sleep, and at dawn that production stops. As the world falls into more and more darkness, what will happen to such body mechanisms? Folks living very far north can probably speak to this; high enough and you see complete darkness in winter for months at a time. Humans aren't adapted to that, and I would hypothesize that the same mechanisms that contribute to circadian rhythm will be maladjusted to that environment.

It's also known that the body's response is based on light (known to impact melatonin production), and that light treatment in the day might ameliorate whatever effect the dim light or darkness has.

The lights we're talking about can, at best, light a small area around them to a brightness that's 10% daylight. The most extreme lamp he mentioned does 30%, again in a small area. Hardly a lighthouse.

It seems natural to me that if you hypothesize that lack of sunlight contributes to sleepiness or depression in winter months, then you'd want to treat that with something approximating sunlight as best you can, or 100,000 lux.

So we don't know for sure whether this works or how effective it is, but there are good theories behind it to test. Let me put it this way: suppose I put a lamp with 100,000 lumens in your bedroom and activated it shortly before dawn or, just for fun, at midnight. Would you wake up? It's clear that light does something to wake you up, and that it's harder to sleep in bright sunlight in darkness. Well, winter is short and dark for many people.

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18. choose+dk[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-24 19:07:27
>>shiven+1c
So, your passive agressive closing is not better than open confrontation, only that it's direct.
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19. jschwa+fk[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-24 19:08:23
>>tacos+Bi
> "Type up a blog post" is not the important part of the scientific method.

How do you think all those legitimate scientific journals got started? It's natural to think that because science is currently done with a huge amount of rigor that it was always done with a huge amount of rigor. In truth, the author's approach is still very scientific.

He considered the research he had available to him, reviewed some of the science regarding different lighting technologies, then tried something and observed that it worked. What about that isn't scientific?

Every scientific pursuit started out as a pseudoscience. Even the most rigorous fields like Physics or Medicine were originally people intuiting about a phenomenon with each other. There's nothing unscientific about what the author did, and to me it raises far more interesting questions than a diatribe about a lack of rigor.

replies(1): >>tacos+JE
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20. DenisM+Xr[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-24 21:14:03
>>dota_f+qg
Your logic applies word-for-word to voodoo science of different kinds.

Consider that you could have said the same thing about the anti-vax movement. Sharing autism anecdotes for other people to build upon is not getting you closer to proper assessment of the vaccine safety.

That's why we dislike this stuff so much - it's bad science, and you can't build good science from bad science.

It's a cool engineering project though, nothing wrong with discussing it as such.

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21. nitrog+Ht[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-24 21:38:25
>>tacos+U9
The article is entitled "You need more lumens" so he's already confronting me.

In informal English there is no accepted equivalent to the third-person pronoun "one", so people reuse the second-person pronoun "you".

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22. tacos+JE[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-25 00:31:17
>>jschwa+fk
> How do you think all those legitimate scientific journals got started?

The founding history of scientific journals is often amazing, involving legends in the respective fields. Then over decades those journals became "legitimate" by not publishing crap.

> Every scientific pursuit started out as a pseudoscience

I don't think that word means what you think it does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

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