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1. logfro+(OP)[view] [source] 2016-01-07 16:59:13
"If you wish to examine a granfalloon, just remove the skin of a toy balloon." — Bokonon (aka Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle)

Just because I mentioned specific individuals does not mean that I agree with them. I only acknowledge that they produced an effect that propagated beyond their own deaths through the actions of the devotees they acquired while living. I might also have mentioned prophets of various religions, though I may not follow any of them.

Skilled as I am at seeing the fnords, in the MLK address you quoted, under the obvious text, lies this subtext: Is my cause not great enough that you might be willing to die for it? If you are not, and have no greater cause to hold your loyalty, then you are more a walking corpse than a living man, and unworthy of my regard. It is very similar to "Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." It is a recruiting speech. And every time a young black person gets "the talk", it is contradicted. According to MLK, every time black kids submerge their will in a police encounter, and come away from it alive, but humiliated, they will be dead inside until their bodies finally catch up. According to me, they will live long enough to either vote in comprehensive reform or to organize and rebel from a dearth of it.

Nonviolent resistance depends in whole upon the oppressors' general unwillingness to murder nonviolent protesters. Willingness to die only works insofar as the opposition is unwilling to kill. Gandhi's protests worked only because British forces in India were unwilling to massacre Indians wholesale. MLK's protests worked only because the segregationists were unwilling to kill in public, before the typewriters and cameras of nationally-published journalists.

If you are willing to die, and the other is willing to kill you, you would be prudent to arrange your affairs in advance, such that other people are positioned to impose meaningful consequences as a result. Otherwise, you are gifting your enemy with a tiny victory.

If you quit a job in the military-industrial complex for which you have some ethical concerns, such as one which enables dragnet surveillance, what is the meaningful consequence? Every failing of the project in recent months is scapegoated to you. The contractor hires a replacement butt-in-seat. The work goes on. Your sacrifice yields nothing. No one rises in gratitude to pay your bills. When you mention in job interviews that you left due to ethical conflicts with the former employer, you never seem to be a good "cultural fit".

Why then would anyone choose to do that?

I'll take the food and the decades. I won't go willingly to my grave, if doing so wouldn't be more meaningful than what I believe I could accomplish with the entire remainder of my natural life. Sometimes, you can't avoid it, but you should always try to not die as you work towards your goals. Don't fear death, but don't ask it out on romantic dates, either.

replies(1): >>Pavlov+w3
2. Pavlov+w3[view] [source] 2016-01-07 17:29:59
>>logfro+(OP)
I quoted them because I agree with them, not because I think you would.

> According to MLK, every time black kids submerge their will in a police encounter, and come away from it alive, but humiliated, they will be dead inside until their bodies finally catch up. According to me, they will live long enough to either vote in comprehensive reform or to organize and rebel from a dearth of it.

Right, so when does the rebellion come? Why would you rebel ever when "someone will do it anyway", like that is some law of nature? According to you, hypothetical black kid should snitch on others when threatened to get beaten or arrested, and why wouldn't they -- if they don't snitch, someone else will do it, and the only difference would be their life being worse. Leaflet #3 of the White Rose comes to mind: "Do not hide your cowardice under the cloak of cleverness!" And I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

> If you quit a job in the military-industrial complex for which you have some ethical concerns, such as one which enables dragnet surveillance, what is the meaningful consequence?

I already said what it is for me and in my opinion, personal moral hygiene. The consequence is that you are no longer part of that. That is plenty meaningful to me. As Frankenstein said in The Death Race, (paraphrasing), "You can't save the world, you can maybe save a part of it, yourself". Well, I don't remember the exact quote, but that's how I feel about it. I don't even believe in something like a soul, but still, I would say saving your soul, retaining what little remains of our innocence, is the best anyone can achieve.

And as many found out, death doesn't always immediately follow making a stand. George Carlin found himself entertaining people he didn't like, the establishment, with cute things, and he pivoted. Had a long career, had a family, was heard, never sold out, never compromised. Noam Chomsky also has plenty haters, and I'm sure plenty who would love to see him hurt, but he is still rocking on.

> When you mention in job interviews that you left due to ethical conflicts with the former employer, you never seem to be a good "cultural fit".

Then either don't mention it, or don't interview for jobs with assholes. Get another job, and help take the assholes down. Do whatever you want, of course, but I don't see the dilemma here. It's not that black and white, i.e. either you go along or you're screwed. Actually, plenty people get screwed even though they're very obedient and have no flavour and no stance of their own. And as Lily Tomlin said, "The trouble with the rat race is, even if you win, you're still a rat." And you know, I don't quote this to put anyone else down, it's how I feel inside. Man, it's not just a feeling, it's a pretty solid thing. I had a lot of shit broken for me for trying to do the right thing, and had a lot of frustration and sadness for not just "popping soma" and going along, for questioning things. Yet I would not do it differently, given then the chance to do it again. I might be smarter or more patient about some things, but in general, I feel I got way more out of it than I lost. It's not just what it does to how I feel inside, it's also what it does to my perception, which is muddled, but less muddled as it would otherwise be. I see and speak with people who made and are making different decisions every day, and I don't envy a single one of them.

> Sometimes, you can't avoid it, but you should always try to not die as you work towards your goals.

Nobody (or hardly anybody) just keels over dead and thinks that advances any cause or does any good. It's usually "doing something or saying something, and then not stopping to do or say it even though others threaten you". You can hardly say "don't fear death" after arguing it's fine to fear quitting a job over ethical concerns, which is so much less than death.

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