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1. jacque+(OP)[view] [source] 2016-01-06 12:03:33
Because information is power and power tends to be abused over the longer term, all fig-leaves about 'improving the world' to the contrary.
replies(2): >>golerg+h1 >>m1sta_+68
2. golerg+h1[view] [source] 2016-01-06 12:28:39
>>jacque+(OP)
> Because information is power and power tends to be abused over the longer term, all fig-leaves about 'improving the world' to the contrary.

This sounds more like a uncompromising proclamation instead of thorough analysis.

replies(1): >>jacque+r1
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3. jacque+r1[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 12:31:16
>>golerg+h1
It's simply an observation made over history, it's not a proclamation and there is no analysis involved. Anybody that has been following the applications of information technology from the earliest of times would most likely come to that same conclusion.

The ancients had it as 'power corrupts', the abuses are plentiful and that every company that engages in these practices (and the government agencies as well) do this to ostensibly make our lives easier or keep us 'safe' is very well known and advertised. If you have evidence to the contrary feel free to share it but that's where we currently stand.

replies(1): >>golerg+wc
4. m1sta_+68[view] [source] 2016-01-06 14:10:55
>>jacque+(OP)
The right to bear arms is partly about the people having the same powers or greater, collectively, than the government.

In the modern era it is information asymmetry that we should worry about. How to prevent such a thing pragmatically is tricky.

replies(1): >>jacque+x9
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5. jacque+x9[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 14:28:27
>>m1sta_+68
> The right to bear arms is partly about the people having the same powers or greater, collectively, than the government.

This only works in the US and even there I have no illusions at all about the ability of a present day militia being able to fight off a trained army, it's a pacifier for overgrown toddlers. The only people that have to fear from citizens with guns are other citizens (with or without guns), the military would have absolutely no problem whatsoever dispatching those if it was decided that their lives and the resulting PR fall-out are less important than whatever objectives they were given.

> In the modern era it is information asymmetry that we should worry about.

Note that there are always provisions in the law to protect the lawmakers from having the laws applied to them.

> How to prevent such a thing pragmatically is tricky.

I think it can't be done unless you simply outlaw it wholesale and are prepared to follow up on it. And from a practical point of view this is now a rear-guard action, fall-back bit by bit and try to push back the point in time where we will have to conclude the battle was lost. This is not a problem that will simply go away, it has already gone way too far for that.

replies(1): >>m1sta_+9s
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6. golerg+wc[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 15:03:38
>>jacque+r1
> The ancients had it as 'power corrupts'

Well, then logical thing would be not to give anyone any power, ever.

My point is, if you take general principles and blindly apply it with "no analysis involved", you're likely to get to a pretty ridiculous state.

replies(1): >>jacque+Rd
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7. jacque+Rd[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 15:15:59
>>golerg+wc
You can take general principle and apply them with analysis, it does not take much in terms of analysis to extract a useful lesson from history, the analysis has already been done for you.

Just like any other tool such insights can be (and are) abused but it need not be like that.

The conclusion to reach is not to give anyone any power ever, clearly that's not feasible. The conclusion you're supposed to reach is that you can give power to people but you'll need oversight in place. Effectively you'll end up with checks and balances, pretty much the way most governments are set up.

And what history tells us - again - is that this isn't always sufficient to prevent abuses and our newspapers and other media seem to tell us that our current set of checks and balances have outlived their usefulness in the information age.

This flows from 'power corrupts' because it appears that those placed in power have - surprise - again abused their privileges.

Think of it as a warning beamed down from historical times to our present day that does not need more embellishment and is all the more powerful for its brevity, it is something so inherent in human nature that we need to be vigilant of it at all times, no matter who we end up placing trust in.

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8. m1sta_+9s[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 17:15:24
>>jacque+x9
> the military would have absolutely no problem whatsoever dispatching those

I'm less pessimistic about that. I'm a big fan of gun control laws but I also think that the one positive thing that has come from the ongoing middle-east conflicts is that a determined militia can be genuinely problematic.

> Note that there are always provisions in the law to protect the lawmakers from having the laws applied to them.

To my original point about asymmetry, this is what we should be devoting our energy fighting.

> simply outlaw it wholesale

Outlaw what wholesale? I'm personally of the opinion that the long term end state will fall more on the side of honesty (combined with increased acceptance) than secrecy.

replies(1): >>jacque+su
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9. jacque+su[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 17:30:22
>>m1sta_+9s
> what

Any kind of abuse of power. The penalties for that should be severe. It's one of the few cases where I think that the penal system should be used as a means of discouragement rather than as one of education and rehabilitation.

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