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1. elrode+(OP)[view] [source] 2016-01-06 10:28:15
There are very few topics where I just cannot get the point of the discussion among smart people, but this is one of them.

Look at the real world NOW, 15 years after all the surveillance. You still can explode bombs and kill people middle in a european capital without any encryption at all. Is this the kind of surveillance you are afraid of?

If you want to hide something, there are infinitely many ways to do this. No surveillance can (or ever will) read the one time pad encrypted communication. So you have (and always will have) your freedom and capabilities to hide — what's your problem?

Arguments like "well then show me your bank account" are just plain stupid: I have no interest in sharing this information with my work colleagues, my neighbours or my friends just because it would have implications in some social aspects (it's not about security!). But his information is only sensitive in context of a personality. I'd neither have problem to show anything to a random stranger nor would I be interested myself in this information coming from a random stranger.

If somebody uses my information in an unethical way, it is not the problem of a surveillance, but that it's possible at all.

Exposing my personal data to a government during an investigation could also protect me by verifying my alibi. We have nothing to hide, right?

The comparison with free speech is ridiculous. Free speech is the opposite of hiding and doesn't imply breaking the law. Hiding implies playing by other rules, than commonly established. Free speech is important because eventually I might have something to say. But no one would ever agree that he or she will have something to hide eventually (without getting criminal).

So I'm still missing the point...

replies(2): >>robmcm+Db >>CurtMo+1v
2. robmcm+Db[view] [source] 2016-01-06 13:43:40
>>elrode+(OP)
Yes because you assume the people who are collecting your data are ethical, secure and will always share your opinions and beliefs.

Say your bank account information was stolen and someone used it to blackmail you because as you said it would have, "implications in some social aspects".

Say the country you live in converted to a religion you are not part of or want to be any part of. Imagine if they had a record of your beliefs and used it as a handy tool in mass genocide.

Say someone working for the government or a start up was jealous of something you had, and used their access to take your information in order to discredit you.

Say you medical information was sold by a fitness start up that went bust and sold to insurance companies to bump your premium.

replies(1): >>elrode+hm
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3. elrode+hm[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 15:47:40
>>robmcm+Db
If we assume, that — by default — people are unethical, governments are corrupt and most people in power are criminal, then you're f*cked anyway. With or without mass surveillance.
replies(2): >>zAy0Lf+ks >>natch+QN
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4. zAy0Lf+ks[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 16:37:20
>>elrode+hm
We don't assume anything by default, we just make an empirical observation of how people behave, and then act accordingly. The empirical observation is that there are people who are unethical, corrupt, what have you. And also, the empirical observation is that there exist certain group dynamics that make certain societal developments very hard to reverse. That is why it seems like a very good idea to avoid putting too much power into a single person's hands (in case it turns out to be one of the bad apples, or in case the power is delegated to a role rather than a specific person, in case one of the bad apples ever gets into that role), and to try and avoid the kinds of developments that tend to end badly.

Nobody says that _all_ people are unethical, or _all_ governments are corrupt, or that _all_ people in power are criminal. But rather, that being part of a government or having power does not prevent people from being unethical or corrupt. Bad people are generally a minority, but they do exist. That is one reason why we have government and police and military in the first place. But there is nothing that necessarily prevents bad people from becoming part of government, police, and military. That is why it is important to limit the power of those institutions. To limit the damage that bad people inside them can do. And also to limit the appeal to bad people wanting to become part of them. That's essentially the whole point of democracy and the separation of powers, BTW. It's a security mechanism that protects you from bad people in power - not because all people in power are bad, but because occasionally bad people manage to get into powerful positions, and that tends to end badly.

5. CurtMo+1v[view] [source] 2016-01-06 16:56:26
>>elrode+(OP)
The most concise description of what you're missing is "chilling effects".

In a hardcore surveillance society, almost any innocent act can be harmful to one. If government, for anti-terrorism reasons, has a rather complete picture of our lives, then we need strong safeguards against how they can act based on that picture.

And the same goes for the private sector, which might form that picture for business reasons.

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6. natch+QN[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 19:09:40
>>elrode+hm
The potential for harm is greatly increased with mass surveillance. If you can accept that, you're getting closer to seeing the problem.
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