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1. vezzy-+(OP)[view] [source] 2016-01-06 04:18:16
what about the folks who are doing Evil in these private channels?

Evil is agnostic of location. Your question is of no significance. You might as well be perturbed over "Evil" people living in houses or eating food. Unsurprisingly, evil people are people and will tend towards the same activities people generally engage in.

replies(1): >>Laaw+k
2. Laaw+k[view] [source] 2016-01-06 04:21:19
>>vezzy-+(OP)
Yours is a defeatist attitude, I think, and there is plenty of evidence that Evil can be stopped/averted in many cases. It's beyond obvious that there is no complete solution for Evil, but if you keep ignoring this question/problem, then people will continue to pick the "no Evil/no privacy" option over your "Evil/privacy" alternative, which is ultimately devastating to everyone.

We need to talk about how to create "no Evil/privacy", or at least how to approach something of that kind, even if an absolute version doesn't exist.

replies(3): >>vezzy-+M >>simonh+Fa >>6d0deb+6V
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3. vezzy-+M[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 04:29:04
>>Laaw+k
I'm really curious what you think evil is since you keep capitalizing and speaking of it as some spiritual essence that can be eradicated.

You have not established the slightest bit of an operational definition, and resort to pathologizing neutral transmission channels as hosts of "Evil". This is a complete non-starter and not worthwhile to deliberate. "Evil uses Tor" is as useful as "Evil uses paper".

replies(2): >>Laaw+I2 >>tdyen+Z8
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4. Laaw+I2[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 04:53:57
>>vezzy-+M
Maybe not worthwhile for you, but there's a set of people out there who all agree on what Evil actually is (generally, obviously it's difficult to be exact), and we'd like to try and figure out how to limit its ability to act, while maintaining the shield of protection for the persecuted.
replies(1): >>Nutmog+bl
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5. tdyen+Z8[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 06:52:27
>>vezzy-+M
But evil uses paper is probably going to do less harm than evil uses Tor or a gun or a nuke. Societal control must adapt to the medium on a regularly adjusting basis depending on the perceived level of evil.
replies(1): >>sdoeri+T9
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6. sdoeri+T9[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 07:14:11
>>tdyen+Z8
Do not underestimate the power of paper. Because with the right amount of legal framework (on paper) I can evict people from their houses, sell these of for a nice profit and not have to care for the fate of said people.

I could rob whole countries of their future (say Greece) with paper treaties.

I can rob people of most of their democratic power (see lots of tries at treaties like TTIP or some things like this).

All on paper and in my eyes tending to the evil side.

The problem with evil though is, that it isn't an objective term, it is not empirically measurable and it has so many definitions and perspectives, that it has none.

Evil is a weasle-word, is propaganda, nothing more. So we really need a better word, a better definition. And breaking the law or something like that does not work either, as for example the laws in Germany, the US or Saudi Arabia or China tend to differ massively. They are ideologically tainted and do not provide an objective framework/reference either.

So we should work on a actionable and helpful definition first and not go partisan on the medium to be controlled.

replies(1): >>trunga+Dm
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7. simonh+Fa[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 07:33:00
>>Laaw+k
I think most people just don't think about online and communications privacy in the same terms that they think about physical privacy. Computer and information privacy should be a basic right just as much as privacy in your own home.

The principle that governments should have covert back doors into our information and communications channels is no different from saying they should automatically get a copy of all of our physical keys, a way to secretly remotely activate and use every camera we own, or remotely activate and listen in on every microphone in our houses.

In fact, as everything moves to electronic, always-connected internet of things platforms these things become increasingly not just equivalent but identical. Soon electronic privacy will be the foundation of every kind of privacy.

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8. Nutmog+bl[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 11:00:07
>>Laaw+I2
Many groups agree within themselves. But they disagree with other groups. Who can judge which group it right? What are the odds that it happens to be the group you're in, not all the others that previous generations were in or people in other cultures are in.

Quick test - is looking at a photo of a naked child evil?

replies(1): >>Laaw+Kq1
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9. trunga+Dm[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 11:22:07
>>sdoeri+T9
The issue here is more or less. A kitchen knife is bound to cause less casualty than a machine gun in the hand of a psycho, hence we require licenses for gun. It's not to eliminate death through violence, it's to reduce and deter it. We don't want people to reach for the nearest machine gun whenever they have a domestic quarrel (obviously we don't want people to reach for a knife either, but I hope you get my point) or when their neighbor's dog poops in their yard.
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10. 6d0deb+6V[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 17:44:20
>>Laaw+k
> [P]eople will continue to pick the "no Evil/no privacy" option

If that was an available option, it would be fine. I'd choose no evil and no privacy because I'd know that my information, and more importantly the information of public officials and company leaders; folks who wield power; wouldn't be abused.

But that's not an option that's on the table, and whatever it is they intend to pick it is not what people accomplish when they endorse surveillance. Our governments do some pretty evil stuff and those are the people who end up with the power in these sorts of arrangements. What people are being given the choice between is 'a dubious promise of safety; an evil that doesn't offend them personally; and no privacy' - or 'a perceived higher rate of evil that does offend them personally; you're under threat, they're coming for your kids, hate freedom etc; and privacy.'

You seem to be taking the no evil part of things as essentially solved. But it's not. We do not have systems we can trust not to abuse this.

replies(1): >>Laaw+er1
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11. Laaw+Kq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 21:38:31
>>Nutmog+bl
Quicker test - do you have a point, or are you just trying to bog down this conversation about privacy with a defeatist "we have to let murders/rapists get away with it" argument?
replies(1): >>Nutmog+8H6
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12. Laaw+er1[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-06 21:42:12
>>6d0deb+6V
Please in the future consider the concept of rhetorical license. It's not literally zero Evil, it's actually "less evil" and "less privacy", vs. "more evil" and "more privacy".

This isn't a conversation about absolutes, it's a conversation about shifting degrees. I'd like to shift towards the "less Evil/more privacy", but no one here or anywhere wants to try to come up with ways to do that, because everyone just assumes privacy gives Evil room to grow.

replies(1): >>6d0deb+6t3
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13. 6d0deb+6t3[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-07 23:58:29
>>Laaw+er1
> Please in the future consider the concept of rhetorical license.

I considered it, but I didn't grant it since it was not clear that it applied - nor for like discussions would it be clear in the future. You adopted an extreme position which is not analogous to the discussion you wished to have, and that is not an act of rhetoric; discussion as an art and a skill. It is simply poor communication - as evidenced by how widely your claims would imply you to be misunderstood.

Rhetorical license doesn't cover that. The charity of understanding others extend a speaker is not an unlimited effort.

> I'd like to shift towards the "less Evil/more privacy", but no one here or anywhere wants to try to come up with ways to do that, because everyone just assumes privacy gives Evil room to grow.

It does. You gave such an example yourself: TOR and child pornography. More widely speaking, it's possible to lessen the 'evil' in society through a great many means - better school, better welfare provision, stronger community links. More to the point many, even on this site, seem in favour of taking those steps: Strong encryption? Please. Better schools? Yes please. Better community organisations? Yeah. There are of course people who'd say no, but that does not change the fact that people in favour of them are easily found.

Many of the steps that could be taken in that regard seem orthogonal to the larger discussion at hand, (encryption security - as structured by reasonable context,) mind.

replies(1): >>Laaw+XF4
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14. Laaw+XF4[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-08 17:21:25
>>6d0deb+6t3
I'm not ready to give up my privacy because it'll make me safer. You shouldn't be, either, but what you're saying now points exclusively there.
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15. Nutmog+8H6[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-10 04:56:52
>>Laaw+Kq1
I'm concerned that you seem to have made a clear distinction between good and evil when really there is none. Certainly we can apply our own society's general ideas, but it's not black and white in any way. Even murder is acceptable in many cultures. For example killing of soldiers during a war.
replies(1): >>Laaw+gn7
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16. Laaw+gn7[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-10 19:51:08
>>Nutmog+8H6
It's a placeholder, and talking about it is distracting from the point (the "point" being maybe we can have both privacy and safety, and that the dichotomy is false). There is undeniably some activity that we can both agree is evil, and therefore we can talk about Evil without having to figure out exactly what that activity is.

Or rather, we could if you were being intellectually honest.

Most people, if given the choice, will nearly always pick safety over privacy. It's simply not enough to say you can't have both, because privacy will eventually get thrown out by the electorate, of any country.

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