“Rust is safe” is not some kind of absolute guarantee of code safety

>>rvz+(OP)
As usual HN comments react to the headline, without reading the content.

A lot of modern userspace code, including Rust code in the standard library, thinks that invariant failures (AKA "programmer errors") should cause some sort of assertion failure or crash (Rust or Go `panic`, C/C++ `assert`, etc). In the kernel, claims Linus, failing loudly is worse than trying to keep going because failing would also kill the failure reporting mechanisms.

He advocates for a sort of soft-failure, where the code tells you you're entering unknown territory and then goes ahead and does whatever. Maybe it crashes later, maybe it returns the wrong answer, who knows, the only thing it won't do is halt the kernel at the point the error was detected.

Think of the following Rust API for an array, which needs to be able to handle the case of a user reading an index outside its bounds:

  struct Array<T> { ... }
  impl<T> Array<T> {
    fn len(&self) -> usize;

    // if idx >= len, panic
    fn get_or_panic(&self, idx: usize) -> T;

    // if idx >= len, return None
    fn get_or_none(&self, idx: usize) -> Option<T>;

    // if idx >= len, print a stack trace and return
    // who knows what
    unsafe fn get_or_undefined(&self, idx: usize) -> T;
  }

The first two are safe by the Rust definition, because they can't cause memory-unsafe behavior. The second two are safe by the Linus/Linux definition, because they won't cause a kernel panic. If you have to choose between #1 and #3, Linus is putting his foot down and saying that the kernel's answer is #3.

>>jmilli+Fb
The policy of ‘oopsing’ and limping on is, in my opinion, literally one of Linux’s worst features. It has bitten me in various cases:

- Remember when Linux had that caused the kernel to partially crash and eat 100% CPU due to some bug in the leap second application code? That caused a >1MW spike in power usage at Hetzner at the time. That must have been >1GW globally. Many people didn’t notice it immediately, so it must have taken weeks before everyone rebooted.

- I’ve personally run into issues where not crashing caused Linux to go on and eat my file system.

On any Linux server I maintain, I always toggle those sysctls that cause the kernel to panic on oops, and reboot on panic.

>>EdScho+Vf
So instead of a power spike, we'd have had a major internet outage across the world, across the entire industry and beyond, probably, if everyone had panicked on oops. The blame really lies with people not monitoring their systems.

As you said, you have the option to reboot on panic, but Linus is absolutely not wrong that this size does not fit all.

What about a medical procedure that WILL kill the patient if interrupted? What about life support in space? Hitting an assert in those kinds of systems is a very bad place to be, but an automatic halt is worse than at least giving the people involved a CHANCE to try and get to a state where it's safe to take the system offline and restart it.

>>mike_h+7k
> What about a medical procedure that WILL kill the patient if interrupted? What about life support in space? Hitting an assert in those kinds of systems is a very bad place to be, but an automatic halt is worse than at least giving the people involved a CHANCE to try and get to a state where it's safe to take the system offline and restart it.

Kinda a strawman there. That's got to account for, what, 0.0001% of all use of computers, and probably they would never ever use Linux for these applications (I know medical devices DO NOT use Linux).

>>ok_dad+8n
Do you know absolutely every medical device in existence and do you know how broad the definition of a medical device is (including e.g. the monitor attached to the PC used for displaying X-ray images)?

>>gmueck+xo
I worked in medical device quality control and so, yes, I know all about the FDA requirements for medical devices and ISO 13485. I can say, with certainty, that base Linux would not be allowed to run in a medical device in the USA. It's software of unknown provenance (SOUP) and would absolutely NOT be used as-is.

>>ok_dad+9s
Then you should know that the use of SOUP is not so clear cut. It depends on the class of device and more specifically, on the part of the device that the software is used on. I know medical devices running SOUP operating systems like Linux. They went to some length to show that the parts running Linux and the critical functions of the device were sufficiently independent. This isolation is specifically allowed by the standards you quote.

It's even worse on things like car dashboards: some warning lights on dashboards need to be ASIL-D conformant, which is quite strict. However, developing the whole dashboard software stack to that standard is too expensive. So the common solution these days is to have a safe, ASIL-D compliant compositor and a small renderer for the warning lights section of the display while the rendering for all the flashy graphics runs in an isolated VM on standard software with lower safety requirements. It's all done on the same CPU and GPU.

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