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1. Someon+87[view] [source] 2022-07-14 18:50:54
>>themgt+(OP)
I've never heard of "commonsense.news" before, but it is by Bari Weiss[0] who is trying to create an "anti-cancel culture," "anti-woke" University called the University of Austin[1]. Her Wikipedia on her history kind of speaks for itself, in particular the "2017–2020" section[0].

Why does this matter? Because most of the articles claims are based on "spoke to us" quotes from anonymous staffers which cannot be independently verified. So it falls to the reputation of those publishing and their journalistic integrity/process, and at that point I leave it to you to make up your own mind.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bari_Weiss#2017%E2%80%932020:_...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Austin

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2. dang+KQ[view] [source] 2022-07-14 23:59:06
>>Someon+87
On HN we try to go by article quality, not site quality: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so.... The author names here are probably more important than whoever owns the site. Their credentials are on the line if the sources they claim to be quoting are made up. That doesn't prove anything, of course, but one's always guessing with these things, and readers need to make up their own minds.

I understand the argument you're making, and it's not an obvious call, but I think it comes with more downside than upside, at least for HN. It's a trope of tribal internet argument (I mean in general—not talking about you here) to follow a "DAG of shame" in which you hop from any node to the most shameful associated thing, with the intention of discrediting the node from which you started. The problem is that each of those hops loses a lot of information, and one ends up in places that aren't particularly relevant, like whatever that university project is.

What's bad about this for HN is that it makes threads more generic, predictable, and repetitive. It also polarizes discussion along the most intense axis. All of this makes discussion less interesting and more inflammatory.

So while it's not an obvious call (more like 60-40 than 80-20) I think we're better off as a community to resist the habit of replacing topic X with the biggest or most shameful other-topic-Y that the dots connect to. It's not that there's no value in it, but it's the wrong move, given what we're trying to optimize for (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...).

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3. KerrAv+ZR[view] [source] 2022-07-15 00:08:45
>>dang+KQ
I understand this argument, and for technical matters, that's fine, but I don't think this is sensible as a general guide for medical or political sites like this one. These are very common snake-oil pits, and it's difficult for people without the necessary specialization of knowledge to discover the pitfalls. The source is sometimes the issue!
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4. dang+MS[view] [source] 2022-07-15 00:15:26
>>KerrAv+ZR
For better or worse, the principle here has always been to trust readers to be smart enough to make up their own minds (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). I'm not saying we all are (nor that I am), but I think it's the right principle, especially for this place, where trying to tell users what/how to think is guaranteed to provoke a backlash (quite separately from political position). The consequences of dropping that principle seem pretty negative to me.

Following standard ideological grooves to discredit the other tribe's sources is not acting from specialist knowledge in any case. The only specialty at work in such discussion is the specialty of internet battle. That's ultimately just a way to turn every thread into a boring, if intense, flamewar.

One of the things that follows from HN's core principle of intellectual curiosity (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...) is the principle of diffs (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...). Diffs are what's interesting. This is the positive formulation of the principle that repetition is bad for curiosity (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...).

For topics that burn hot, like political/ideological ones, this "diff" principle implies that discussion is most interesting (and therefore best for HN) when people don't take the obvious path from their own initial position—that is, when they don't repeat the reaction that they've had most often before. That is a hard thing to ask on the hottest topics, which tend to melt into a few (well, two) monolithic piles of tar. But I think it follows from the principle.

Here's another thing that I think follows, and is even harder to swallow. To the extent that someone has strong political/ideological views, if they're not seeing articles on HN that they strongly disagree with, at least semi-regularly, then there's probably something wrong with HN*.

That isn't always great for community spirit because it only takes a few disagreeable data points before the mind starts to defend itself with a "this place sucks" reaction (and there are people on all ideological sides who develop such reactions). I wrote about this here, if anyone wants to read more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098.

* To ward off one common misunderstanding: that is not a Goldilocks argument for split-the-difference centrism! It's an argument for unpredictability. Since centrism is just as predictable as other ideologies, it should encounter just as much to be put off by.

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5. jonste+5g1[view] [source] 2022-07-15 03:48:14
>>dang+MS
> the principle here has always been to trust readers to be smart enough to make up their own minds

That's a fine principle. By extension, it should also be fine for commenters to note facts about sources. You are right that internet discussion can be derailed by the DAG of association, but internet discussion based solely on "what does the article say?" is naïve, amounting to borderline sealioning.

Part of critical thinking and reading is understanding the POV of the author(s) and publisher(s), and considering their motivations and incentives.

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6. dang+CY2[view] [source] 2022-07-15 18:00:46
>>jonste+5g1
Sure, but "noting facts about sources" is so broad that it can cover everything from adding neutral, interesting information all the way to tribal warfare. It's the latter that I'm objecting to (for HN), for reasons I think I've described already: it makes threads more repetitive, predictable, and nasty.

I don't think the DAG-of-shame game really has to do with curiosity about facts. It has to do with tarring ideological enemies. Maybe they deserve it, maybe they don't, but it's not the quality of discussion we want here.

Rather than an ambiguous phrase like "noting facts about sources", I think we're better off applying the clearer distinction between curious conversation and ideological battle. There's a binary distinction between those two things (as binary as these things can get), and we know which one we want on this site.

Moreover, one destroys the other, so it needs to be actively moderated. I don't just mean what moderators do, but the general sense of dampening excesses and avoiding extremes. We want a culture of moderation on HN—not for its own sake, but because curiosity only flowers in a temperate climate.

(By the way, I'm not disagreeing ideologically with any of the comments that I'm objecting to here. This is about discussion quality and attempting to organize the site around one specific value: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor....)

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