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[return to "How much do we need the police?"]
1. js2+G5[view] [source] 2020-06-03 22:33:48
>>js2+(OP)
I know folks don't always click through, so I'll highlight what I found most insightful:

> Part of our misunderstanding about the nature of policing is we keep imagining that we can turn police into social workers. That we can make them nice, friendly community outreach workers. But police are violence workers. That's what distinguishes them from all other government functions. ... They have the legal capacity to use violence in situations where the average citizen would be arrested.

> So when we turn a problem over to the police to manage, there will be violence, because those are ultimately the tools that they are most equipped to utilize: handcuffs, threats, guns, arrests. That's what really is at the root of policing. So if we don't want violence, we should try to figure out how to not get the police involved.

> Political protests are a threat to the order of this system. And so policing has always been the primary tool for managing those threats to the public order. Just as we understand the use of police to deal with homelessness as a political failure, every time we turn a political order problem over to the police to manage, that's also a political failure.

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2. joseph+8b[view] [source] 2020-06-03 23:04:57
>>js2+G5
I think that’s made much more true because that’s the image police forces in America have of themselves. “We’re here to beat up the bad guys”. Police here in Australia are far from perfect, but they are much more seen as part of the community. They don’t even carry firearms any more.

In Australia I wouldn’t hesitate to contact the police or talk to them on the street if something happened. (Just like I wouldn’t hesitate to call an ambulance if someone gets hurt). When I lived in the Bay Area that attitude seemed naive and stupid / dangerous.

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3. djrobs+df[view] [source] 2020-06-03 23:29:07
>>joseph+8b
I don't know what part of Australia you're in, but literally every cop I've ever encountered here carries a firearm.

They also have a pretty decent rep for brutality themselves, particularly if you're indigenous.

So you are presenting a very misleading view.

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4. missos+Mj[view] [source] 2020-06-03 23:55:17
>>djrobs+df
Yes most police in AU carry a firearm.

No they don't have a 'decent rep' for brutality, whatever that means. Comparing AU police to US police is insane. Every encounter with police like a traffic stop in the US is a nonzero chance of getting killed. That's not at all comparable to Australia where there are no tasers and the use of lethal force is in the single digits per year nationally.

The view you're presenting is significantly more divorced from reality than the GP. Just like GP said, calling the police in the states even if you need their aid, is a gamble. In Australia I would not hesitate to call or interact with the police under any circumstances. Even in the immediate vicinity the Bourke St incident, I felt safe approaching and interacting with the SRG guys decked out in their military gear and automatic rifles. They went out of their way to make sure me and people with me got a safe corridor to leave the area. In the states, that'd be about a 100% chance of getting shot.

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5. seibel+Hl[view] [source] 2020-06-04 00:08:42
>>missos+Mj
You are also greatly exaggerating the risk to citizens in the USA when calling the police. The risk is not to the caller, the risk is to the alleged criminal that may get manhandled (or shot) way out of proportion to the offense. But you don’t make a mental “death chance calculation” when you call the cops.
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6. missos+Go[view] [source] 2020-06-04 00:30:14
>>seibel+Hl
> You are also greatly exaggerating the risk to citizens in the USA

"Noor was convicted of third degree murder and second degree manslaughter for killing Ms Damond Ruszczyk just minutes after she called 911 to report a possible sexual assault in the alley behind her Minneapolis home in July 2017."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-08/mohamed-noor-sentence...

> The risk is not to the caller

Just yesterday there was news coverage of a store owner who called police for aid against looters and was attacked and handcuffed by those same police when they arrived on the scene.

Also, incidents like this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/26/kazeem-oyen...

Any single one of these stories would provoke a national outcry here. They're unthinkable here. But it's everyday life in the US.

> But you don’t make a mental “death chance calculation” when you call the cops.

Yeah I do. When I was visiting the states my friend was instructing me to do things like turn on my interior car light and slowly put my hands on the steering wheel and do absolutely nothing that could possibly provoke the cop. That sounded fucking insane to me, coming from Australia.

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7. seibel+8s[view] [source] 2020-06-04 01:02:20
>>missos+Go
Believe me - I am not a fan of the police in general - but you are cherry picking some extreme examples. There are many cases of police brutality in Australia.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/it-does-happen-here-calls-to...

> “The family of an Aboriginal man who died in custody says protests against police brutality in the US should be a wake-up call about the plight of Indigenous Australians in the justice system.

> Speaking in the wake of video footage of an Aboriginal teenager being kicked to the ground by a NSW policeman, Paul Francis-Silva, whose uncle died in a Sydney prison in 2015, said: "It does happen here in Australia - the brutality, and the injustice against the First Nations people.”

You could also agree Australians are full of racist, evil cops as well, yes? Or is picking a few extreme examples not allowed for your country?

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8. missos+nu[view] [source] 2020-06-04 01:20:13
>>seibel+8s
You're comparing single-digits per decade incidents which incite national outcry, with triple-digits per year incidents which are taken as a fact of life in the US. And you're trying to set a narrative that somehow those are comparable. They are not.
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9. jiggun+iF[view] [source] 2020-06-04 03:11:25
>>missos+nu
Regarding single digits vs triple digits: absolute metrics are pretty useless unless the US population is the same size as AU.
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