Like what's the point of having the test be time constrained? If there is no point, then just let everyone have more time. If there is a point to having the test be time constrained, then aren't we just holding one group to a lower standard than another group? Why is that good?
Same question about lectures. Is there a reason everyone can't record the lectures? If so, then why do we have different standards?
I think at the college level, grades should in some sense reflect your proficiency at a given topic. An "A" in calculus should mean that you can do calculus and that evaluation should be independent of your own strengths, weaknesses, disabilities, genetic predisposition to it, and so on. Imagine an extreme example: someone is in a car crash, suffers brain damage, and is now unable to do calculus. This is tragic. But I don't also feel that it now makes sense to let them do their tests open book or whatever to accommodate for that. As a society we should do whatever we can to support this individual and help them live their best life. But I don't see how holding them to a lower standard on their college exams accomplishes that.
Tests usually measure lots of things, and speed and accuracy / fluency in the topic is one.
It certainly shouldn't be entirely a race either though.
Also if a test is time constrained it's easier to mark. Give a failing student 8 hours and they'll write 30 pages of nonsense.
In contrast, special-casing few disadvantaged students is a local decisions every school or university could make independently, and initially it was an easy sell - a tiny exception to help a fraction of people whom life treated particularly hard. Nobody intended for that to eventually apply to 1/3 of all students - but this is just the usual case of a dynamic system adjusting to compensate.
But putting aside standardized tests, in the context of this discussion about Stanford, I think these accommodations are being used for ordinary tests given for classes, so Stanford (or any other school) has full control to do whatever they want.
Sure that makes sense to me, but I don't see why this would not also apply to ADHD students or any other group.
And of course, there needs to be some time limit. All I am saying is, instead of having a group that gets one hour and another group that gets two hours, just give everyone two hours.
I meant "constrained" not in the sense of having a limit at all, but in the sense that often tests are designed in such a way that it is very common that takers are unable to finish in the allotted time. If this constraint serves some purpose (i.e. speed is considered to be desirable) then I don't see why that purpose doesn't apply to everyone.
It’s like stack ranking within companies that always fire the bottom 20%. Everyone will do whatever they can to be in the top 80% and it continues to get worse every year. Job conditions are not improving every year - they are continually getting worse and that’s due to the issue that we just don’t have enough jobs.
This country doesn’t build anything anymore and we are concentrating all the wealth and power into the hands of a few. This leaves the top 1% getting richer every year and the bottom 99% fighting over a smaller piece of the pie every year.
At the end of the day setting up a system where different students have different criteria for succeeding, automatically incentivizes students to find the easiest criteria for themselves.
If you can't do calculus, extra time is not going to help you. Its not like an extra 30 minutes in a closed room environment is going to let you rederrive calculus from first principles.
The theory behind these accomedations is that certain people are disadvantaged in ways that have nothing to do with the thing being evaluated.
The least controversial version would be someone that is blind gets a braile version of the test (or someone to read it to them, etc). Sure you can say that without the accomadations the blind student cannot do calculus like the other students can, but you are really just testing if they can see the question not if they "know" calculus. The point of the test is to test their ability at calculus not to test if their eyes work.
Why are you trying to measure speed though?
I can't think of any situation where someone was like: you have exactly 1 minute to integrate this function, or else.
Fluency yes, but speed is a poor proxy for fluency.
If as you say the number of available positions is constrained, this system does nothing to increase the supply of those positions. It also does nothing increase the likelihood that those positions are allocated to those with the greatest material need. This is Stanford; I am sure many of the disabled students at Stanford are in the 1%.
A few examples: competitive tests based on adapting the questions to see how "deep" an individual can get within a specific time. IRL there are lots of tasks that need to be done well and quickly; a correct plodder isn't acceptable.
But extra test time is fundamentally different, as it would be of value to anyone taking the test.
If getting the problems in Braille helps the student demonstrate their ability to do Calculus, we give them the test in Braille. If getting 30 minutes of extra time helps all students demonstrate their ability to do calculus, why don't we just give it to all students then?
Taking what is currently scheduled as a three hour exam which many students already leave after 2, and for which some have accommodations allowing them 4 hours, and just setting aside up to five hours for it for everyone, likely makes the exam a fairer test of knowledge (as opposed to a test of exam skills and pressured time management) for everyone.
Once you’ve answered all the problems, or completed an essay, additional time isn’t going to make your answers any better. So you can just get up and leave when you’re done.
Joel Spolsky explained this well about what makes a good programmer[1]. "If the basic concepts aren’t so easy that you don’t even have to think about them, you’re not going to get the big concepts."
[1] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/10/25/the-guerrilla-guid...
So let's say you have a generally fair time bonus for mild (clinical) anxiety. The issue is that it's fair for the average mild anxiety, it's an advantage if a student has extremely mild anxiety.
As you say, hopefully the test is not overly time focused, but it's still an advantage, and a lot of these students / parents will go for every advantage they can.
* You have a disability that hinders your ability to type on a keyboard, so you need extra time to type the essay based exam through vocal transcription.
* You broke your dominant hand (accidents happen) so even though you know all of the material, you just can't write fast enough within normal "reasonable" time limits.
* You are blind, you need some way to be able to read the questions in the test. People who can see normally shouldn't need those accommodations.
I don't think those are cases where you are lowering the bar. Not by more than you are allowing the test taker a fairer chance, anyway.
The problem is when you get into the gray area where it's not clear than an accommodation should be given.
If thinking speed is not important, why are we evaluating it at all?
This means that someone fully abled can think about and solve problems for 1h and 50 minutes, and use 10 minutes to physically write/type the answers, and someone with a disability (eg. missing a hand, using a prosthetic) only gets eg. one hour to solve the problems and one hour to write/type the answers due to the disablity making them write/type more slowly.
Same for eg. someone blind, while with proper eyesight, you might read a question in 30 seconds, someone blind reading braille might need multiple minutes to read the same text.
With unlimited time this would not be a problem, but since speed is graded too (since it's important), this causes differences in grades.
In real life, you're rarely given unlimited time for your tasks, and workers who can do more in less time are considered better than the ones who always need deadine extensions, so why not grade that too?
That seems like a big assumption that i don't believe is true in general.
I think its true at an individual level, as you learn more about a subject you will become faster at it. I don't think its true when comparing between different people. Especially if you throw learning disabilities into the mix which is often just code for strong in one area and weak in another, e.g. smart but slow.
But to quote the article linked in the parent comment:
> The increase is driven by more young people getting diagnosed with conditions such as ADHD, anxiety, and depression, and by universities making the process of getting accommodations easier.
These disabilities are more complex for multiple reasons.
One is the classification criteria. A broken hand or blindness is fairly discrete, anxiety is not. All people experience some anxiety; some experience very little, some people a great deal, and everything in between. The line between regular anxiety and clinical anxiety is inherently fuzzy. Further, a clinical anxiety diagnosis is usually made on the basis of patient questionnaires and interviews where a patient self-reports their symptoms. This is fine in the context of medicine, but if patients have an incentive to game these interviews (like more test time), it is pretty trvial to game a GAD-7 questionnaire for the desired outcome. There are no objective biomarkers we can use to make a clinical anxiety diagnosis.
Another is the scope of accommodation. The above examples have an accommodation narrowly tailored to the disability in a way that maintains fairness. Blind users get a braille test that is of no use to other students anyway. A student with a broken hand might get more time on an eassy test, but presumably would receive no extra time on a multiple choice test and their accommodation is for a period of months, not indefinite.
> The increase is driven by more young people getting diagnosed with conditions such as ADHD, anxiety, and depression, and by universities making the process of getting accommodations easier.
I think these disabilities are more complex than the broken hand and blindness examples for reasons I commented on elsewhere in this thread. In your example, a student with depression or clinical anxiety presumably only needs the same 10 minutes to write/type the answers as all the other students. Which means the extra time is added for them to "think about and solve problems." That seems fundamentally different to me than the broken hand example.
That depends on how the test is designed.
Some tests have more material than anyone can hope to finish. Extra time is always valuable in such a test.
However that type of test is generally bad because it more measures speed then skill.
Most tests are designed so the average person is able to finish all the questions. In those tests more time for the average person is not helpful. They have already done it. Sure they could maybe redo all the questions, but there is very diminishing returns.
If the extra 30 minutes improves someone who needs the accomedation's score by 50%, and increases the average student's score by 2% or even not at all, clearly the same thing isn't going on.
So i would disagree that extra time helps everyone.
Just think about it - when was the last time you had a final exam where literally every person handed in the exam at the last moment. When i was in school, the vast majority of people handed in their exam before the time limit.
> why don't we just give it to all students then?
I actually think we should. Requiring people to get special accomedations biases the system to people comfortable with doing that. We should just let everyone get the time they need.
I'm also fine if a teacher or organization decides they just want to evaluate competency at the underlying material, in which case I think a very generous time limit should be given. Here the time limit is not meant to constrain the test taker, but is just an logistical artifact that eventually teachers and students need to go home. The test should be designed so that any competent taker can complete well in advance of the time limit.
I only object to conditionally caring about the thinking speed of students.
Wouldn't say this is an accurate description of the US economy.
https://realtimeinequality.org/?id=wealth&wealthend=03012023...
I didn't because I'd use the extra time to go over my answers again looking for errors.
Top 0.01%, +9.1%
Top 0.1%, +13.9%
Top 1%, +15.2%
Top 10%, +6.1%
Middle 40%, -6%
Bottom 50%, -0.1%
This supports exactly GP's two statements:
> we are concentrating all the wealth and power into the hands of a few.
Correct, their slice of the pie is growing, the bottom 90%'s is shrinking
> This leaves the top 1% getting richer every year and the bottom 99% fighting over a smaller piece of the pie every year.
Also correct, the biggest growth of share being in the top 1% segment.
For real mental disabilities, extra time is actually necessary because a person's brain isn't able to work at the same rate as a healthy person under that situation.
I'm bipolar and have personal experience with this. My brain can lock up on me and I'll need five minutes or so to get it back. Depressive episodes can also affect my memory retrieval. Things come to me slower than they usually do.
I also can't keep track of time the way a healthy person does. I don't actually know how much time each problem takes, and sometimes I don't know how much time is left because can't remember when the test started. I can't read analog clocks; it takes me 10~20 seconds to read them. (1)
Extra time isn't giving me any advantage, it just gives me a chance.
1: I'm not exaggerating here. I've have dyslexia when it comes to numbers.
Here's what I need to do to figure out how much time is left:
- Dig through my brain to find what time it's started. This could remember something was being heard, something I saw, or recalling everything I know about the class.
- Hold onto that number and hope I don't flip the hour and minutes.
- Find a clock anywhere in the classroom and try to remember if it's accurate or not. While I'm doing this I also have to continuously tell the start time to myself.
- Find out the position of the hour hand.
- Tell myself the start time.
- Look at the dial, figure out the hour and try to hold on to it.
- Tell myself the start time.
- Tell myself the hour number.
- Tell myself the start time.
- Find out the position of the minute hand.
- Tell myself the start time.
- Hour forgotten, restart from the hour hand.
- Hour remembered, start time forgotten, restart from the top.
- Both remembered.
- Look at the dial, figure out minute and try to hold to it.
- Hour and start time need to be remembered.
- Combined hour and minute from analog clock.
- Figure out what order I should subtract them in.
- Remember everything
- Two math operations.
Now that I have the time and I don't remember what I needed it for.
- Realize I'm taking a test and try to estimate how much more time I need to complete it.
I could probably use a stopwatch or countdown, but that causes extreme anxiety as I watch the numbers change.
I don't have this kind of problem at my job because I'm not taking arbitrarily-timed tests that determine my worth to society. They don't, but that's what my brain tells me no matter how many times I try to correct it.
> Correct, their slice of the pie is growing, the bottom 90%'s is shrinking
Not sure about "power" there. In my experience you get power by having a lot of free time and dedication to something else other people don't care about… which yes includes billionaires obviously, but most of the people meeting that description are just middle class retirees, so they're outnumbered.
> > This leaves the top 1% getting richer every year and the bottom 99% fighting over a smaller piece of the pie every year.
> Also correct, the biggest growth of share being in the top 1% segment.
It does not show it "every year", there are long periods of stagnation and some reversals. I would say it shows that recessions are bad and we should avoid having them.
nb another more innocuous explanation is: there's no reason to have a lot of wealth. To win at this game you need to hoard wealth, but most people are intentionally not even trying that. For instance, you could have a high income but spend it all on experiences or donate it all to charity.
Let's take Alice and Bob, who are both in the same class.
Alice has clinical depression, but on this particular Tuesday, she is feeling ok. She knows the material well and works through the test answering all the questions. She is allowed 30 minutes of extra time, which is helpful as it allows her to work carefully and checking her work.
Bob doesn't have a disability, but he was just dumped by his long term girlfriend yesterday and as a result barely slept last night. Because of his acute depression (a natural emotion that happens to all people sometimes), Bob has trouble focusing during the exam and his mind regularly drifts to ruminate on his personal issues. He knows the material well, but just can't stay on the task at hand. He runs at out of time before even attempting all the problems.
Now, I can imagine two situations.
1. For this particular exam, there really isn't a need to evaluate whether the students can quickly recall and apply the material. In this situation, what reason is there to not also give Bob an extra 30 minutes, same as Alice?
2. For whatever reason, part of the evaluation criteria for this exam is that the test taker is able to quickly recall and apply the material. To achieve a high score, being able to recall all the material is insufficient, it must be done quickly. In this case, basically Alice and Bob took different tests that measured different things.
Put another way, if my brain works at a slower rate than the genius in my class, is it then unfair if my grades don't match theirs?
In general these seem like reasonable differences to consider when hiring someone for a job.
Isn't speed and fluency part of skill and mastery of the material?
> Just think about it - when was the last time you had a final exam where literally every person handed in the exam at the last moment. When i was in school, the vast majority of people handed in their exam before the time limit.
I think almost all of my high school exams and at least half of my college finals had >90% of students remaining in the exam hall when the proctor called time.
A lot of things start like this. You need someone with an aggressive backbone to enforce things - which these institutions won't have.
We might as well make races longer for athletes with longer legs. It’s unfair to the ones with shorter legs to have to move them more often.
I'm just saying if you are going to let some kids stay longer, let everyone stay longer. And you seem to agree on that point.
Either have a time limit for everyone or no one.
Perhaps this comes down to definitions, but i would say that in general, no, speed is not part of mastering material in intellectual pursuits.
Sometimes it might be correlated though. Other times it might be negatively correlated, e.g. someone who memorized everything but doesn't understand the principles will have high speed and low mastery.
Hello, I also have multiple personality order aka dissociative identity disorder, where by multiple people live in the same body
Hello I'm a tiny babby
It's that much harder to change the rules of standardized testing for all students, for complex and possibly dubious reasons, than it is to make an exception for small number of clearly disadvantaged students. One is inviting nation-wide political discussion on the merits and fairness and consequences of the changes, the other is an isolated act of charity with (initially) no impact on the larger educational system.
We look at the range of lengths that is typical for legs. And all these get to compete under typical conditions.
Now let's say someone has a leg length that is fairly outside of the typical range. Let's say someone has a leg length of zero. We let these athletes compete with each other as well with different conditions, but we don't really compare the results from the typical to the atypical group.
One Problem is, that we first have to clearly define the construct that we want to measure with the test. That is not often clear and often underdefined. When designing a test, we also need to be clear about what external influences contribute to noise / error and which are created by the actual measurement. There never is a test that does not have a margin of error.
A simple / simplified example: When we measure IQ, we want to determine cognitive processing speed. So we need to have fixed time for the test. But people also may read the questions faster or slower. This is just a typical range, so when you look at actual IQ tests, they will not give a score (just the most likely score) but also a margin of error, and test theorists will be very unhappy if you don't take this margin of error seriously. Now take someone who is legally blind. That person will be far out of the margin of error of others. The margins of errors account for typical inter-personal and intra-personal (bad day, girlfriend broke up) etc occurrences. But this doesn't work here. So we try to fix this, and account for the new source of error differently, e.g. by giving more time.
So it highly depends on what you want to measure. If you are doing a test in CS, do you want to measure how well the student understood the material and how fast they can apply it? Or do you want to measure how fast the student could do an actual real-live coding task? Depending on what your answer is, you need a very different measurement strategy and you need to handle sources of error differently.
When looking at grades people usually account for these margins of errors intuitively. We don't just rely on grades when hiring, but also conduct interviews etc so we can get a clearer picture.
If you just want to measure speed, we should clock the time the student gets up, until they get to the room where the test is, get's out his pen etc. So students get the same time to do all this.
We are now measuring the speed at which the student is able to do the test material including all the preparatory steps. Students who live further away or have slower cars will get worse grade, but we are just measuring speed, aren't we?
That is a deliberately stupid example, but it shows that is important to ask "speed of what?". When doing a physics exam, what do we want to include in our measurement? The time it takes the person to read an write? Or just the raw speed at which physics knowledge can be applied? What is error and what is measurement?
You can see it as measuring based on different criteria. Or you can see it as trying to get rid of sources of errors that may be vastly different for different students.
It would be great if we could reduce the sources of errors down to zero for everyone. But unfortunately humans are very stochastic in nature, so we cannot do this. But then there has to be an acceptable source of measurement error (typical distribution) and an unacceptable source of measurement error (atypical distribution) and to actually measure based on the same criteria, you need to measure differently based on what you believe the error to be.
An excellent way to git gud at something is to do timed practice again and again. Aim for 100% correct answers AND for fast answers. Answers that took to long should be identified and practiced again (and maybe some of the theory should be re-read or read from another textbook).
Don't settle for 100% correct during practice.
Can he do that well?
Is he likely to continue to be able to do that as he progresses to the stuff that is actually hard?
(My guess is that the answers are yes (so far), no, and definitely not.)
Take slow processing is a really good symptom of something that needs more practice time.