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1. dctoed+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-12-04 19:21:18
I'm mostly a law professor these days. When final-exam time rolls around (as in, this week), I raise my eyebrows when I'm sent the list of students who get 50% extra time. I wouldn't presume to judge the propriety of any given student's accommodation. But many of the accommodated students seem to have done just fine in class discussions during the semester.

FTA: "Unnecessary accommodations are a two-front form of cheating—they give you an unjust leg-up on your fellow students, but they also allow you to cheat yourself out of genuine intellectual growth."

replies(3): >>scratc+Ei >>Sparkl+Sn >>throaw+gL6
2. scratc+Ei[view] [source] 2025-12-04 20:43:30
>>dctoed+(OP)
FWIW, consider that some of these students may need the accommodation specifically because of the pressure of the final exam. Many mental health disabilities will become worse with stress. A low stress environment and a high stress final exam could trigger entirely different symptoms.

For example, I have OCD (real, diagnosed, not the bs "omg im so ocddddd"). I have extra time accommodations because I have to spend time dealing with my OCD symptoms. With treatment, they tend to fade into the background. They re-emerge only in high stress situations. I would seem like a perfectly normal student in class, but then clearly start struggling with these symptoms if you watched me take an exam. Consider, many other students you teach may have these same experiences.

replies(2): >>lisbbb+Ir >>dctoed+kw
3. Sparkl+Sn[view] [source] 2025-12-04 21:09:18
>>dctoed+(OP)
I don't see how getting 50% extra time on exams is anything remotely close to cheating. Almost nothing I do in my day to day job comes close to being as time-boxed or arbitrarily restrictive as exams were in college.
replies(5): >>loeg+Ds >>dctoed+dt >>next_x+cu >>lingru+SG >>gaws+RR5
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4. lisbbb+Ir[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 21:28:07
>>scratc+Ei
Then they don't belong in the law field or wherever, simple as that. My son has OCD pretty bad, and I know there are roles he is unsuitable for. One of the things he does is confesses about every little thing that happens--he can't keep a secret or tell a lie. It's socially debilitating.
replies(1): >>scratc+Jk7
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5. loeg+Ds[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 21:33:55
>>Sparkl+Sn
Why don't all students get the extra time, then?
replies(3): >>ghc+hv >>devsda+hm1 >>will42+UK1
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6. dctoed+dt[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 21:37:52
>>Sparkl+Sn
> Almost nothing I do in my day to day job comes close to being as time-boxed or arbitrarily restrictive as exams were in college.

An unpleasant fact of law-school faculty life is that, at least at my school, I'm required to grade students so that the average is between 3.2 (a high B) and 3.4 (a low B-plus). Because of the nature of my course [0], a timed final exam is about the only realistic way to spread out The Curve.

[0] https://toedtclassnotes.site44.com/Syllabus.html

replies(1): >>lupire+p14
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7. next_x+cu[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 21:43:18
>>Sparkl+Sn
Class rank is a primary factor for top law jobs open to new law school graduates. MCAT scores play a huge role in med school admissions. Etc.

Like it or not, there are life changing impacts to others by cheating at this stuff. This is unambiguously cheating.

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8. ghc+hv[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 21:48:44
>>loeg+Ds
That's a great question, actually. Timing tests appears to arbitrarily punish students.
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9. dctoed+kw[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 21:54:00
>>scratc+Ei
> some of these students may need the accommodation specifically because of the pressure of the final exam.

Success as a lawyer often requires the ability to handle a certain amount of pressure. Timed exams are one way of screening for that ability. But it's by no means a sure-fire predictor of success: Legendary trial lawyer Joe Jamail [0] flunked his first-year Torts class at UT Austin [1], yet went on to become a billionnaire.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Jamail

[1] https://abovethelaw.com/2015/12/r-i-p-to-a-billionaire-lawye...

replies(2): >>lingru+oG >>gverri+gU
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10. lingru+oG[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 22:46:58
>>dctoed+kw
One can only hope these accommodations are not being granted to medical students.
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11. lingru+SG[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 22:50:20
>>Sparkl+Sn
What do you do for work?

I'm not aware of many jobs where employers don't care how fast the work gets done.

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12. gverri+gU[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 00:06:44
>>dctoed+kw
You are praising billionaires while complaining about people gaming the system?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

replies(1): >>dctoed+KU
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13. dctoed+KU[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 00:11:01
>>gverri+gU
It wasn't praise — just an observation about how grades and class standing aren't always a good predictor of success.

(I never met Joe Jamail, but by reputation there was a lot about him that I didn't especially admire.)

replies(1): >>gverri+NX
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14. gverri+NX[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 00:32:40
>>dctoed+KU
The problem is your identifying success with becoming a billionaire. To me, in the contrary, it's the telltale of a profoundly broken society.
replies(1): >>dctoed+W21
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15. dctoed+W21[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 01:09:29
>>gverri+NX
I don't disagree that the existence of billionnaires is problematic (especially given the Supreme Court's abominable decision in Citizens United).

But it's beyond rational dispute that Joe Jamail was one of the most successful trial lawyers of our era.

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16. devsda+hm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 04:30:27
>>loeg+Ds
If everybody gets extension, say a 2 hr test becomes 3 hrs, then eventually there will be someone who claims 3 hrs is the new normal time and still demand an extension over that.

It really depends on the perception of whether the goal of the extension is to give disabled students an edge over "normal" students or to give everyone a fair(not necessarily equal) opportunity to complete the test.

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17. will42+UK1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 09:00:14
>>loeg+Ds
Doesn't satisfy the ADA. Department of Ed will sue and say that an accomodation given to everybody is no accomodation at all.
replies(2): >>lupire+N14 >>Manuel+Zk6
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18. lupire+p14[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 20:48:27
>>dctoed+dt
Give Everyone a 3.3

Have a random lottery for grades.

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19. lupire+N14[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 20:50:33
>>will42+UK1
Are you implying that if someone walks up a wheelchair ramp, then the building is violating the ADA?
replies(1): >>will42+875
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20. will42+875[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-06 06:52:39
>>lupire+N14
No, of course not, that'd be ridiculous. Where did you see that in my post?

To explain in more detail. The ADA says that an accommodation is when an entity (business, employer, school) makes a change of behavior. Installing a wheelchair ramp in an older inaccessible building is an accomodation. Granting extra time is an accomodation. Simply having accessible buildings or excessive time is not an accomodation.

But why the lawyers treat it differently. Business feel comfortable, when they have a ramp, arguing that no accommodation is necessary for the wheelchair bound. The standards of accessible physical design are clear. Schools do not feel comfortable saying that no accommodation is necessary for mental health issues, ever. Their lawyers advise them that it's much better to give some sort of accomodation and argue in court about sufficient accomodations vs giving no accomodation at all.

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21. gaws+RR5[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-06 15:43:50
>>Sparkl+Sn
> I don't see how getting 50% extra time on exams is anything remotely close to cheating.

If you lie about having a disability to get extra time, you're falsely gaining an advantage over other students taking the same test. That's cheating.

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22. Manuel+Zk6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-06 19:35:40
>>will42+UK1
So it's not really an accommodation that's required by the ADA, but an advantage over the baseline?
23. throaw+gL6[view] [source] 2025-12-06 23:33:56
>>dctoed+(OP)
Im a 4.0 GPA student with no history of ever asking for or needing extra time for tests.

I had an ADHD assessment after my mom was diagnosed (she is typical type, forgets everything), and they diagnosed me, and gave the following official recommendations:

"Patient must be provided with extra time for all tests & assignments as he cannot focus due to ADHD."

I never said I needed anything like this. In fact, I said the opposite. I would typically be one of the first to finish, because I had studied appropriately!

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24. scratc+Jk7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-07 07:11:05
>>lisbbb+Ir
You do realize that not everybody has the same symptoms right? Many people with OCD may struggle with tests but can do just fine in the real world. Tests aren't at all representative of real jobs.
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