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It’s time to free JavaScript (2024)

submitted by pavela+(OP) on 2025-12-04 09:01:55 | 716 points 351 comments
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13. rs186+5g[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 11:27:12
>>siwata+Yc
Who are "people"? How would all of this start?

In terms of standard, the specs already use "ECMAScript" and don't even mention JavaScript (https://github.com/tc39/ecma262/), although TC39 website does use it frequently. I guess they could officially recommend people stop using "JavaScript", but I doubt they care.

Otherwise, the petitioner Deno here is only a small part of the ecosystem and barely controls anything (and really nobody other than TC39 controls anything, which is good). They (or anyone else) can't just shout "stop saying JavaScript!" and expect people to follow.

Not to mention JavaScript is a simple, easy to pronounce word compared to ECMAScript despite the baggage, which is probably why they chose it in the first place.

Let's say the "JavaScript" name is officially deprecated somehow. People will continue to use the name for as long as it exists.

So Deno's petition tackles these problems, addresses the root cause and appears to be legally viable. That is the "right thing to do" here. Avoiding the name does not solve the problem. It never does.

30. karel-+Sj[view] [source] 2025-12-04 11:54:23
>>pavela+(OP)
They now have GoFundMe where they are soliciting donations for a discovery phase of a <strike>patent</strike> trademark cancellation request.

They have just 50k USD out of 200k USD they are raising. (No idea if that's appropriate; from the outside, it seems like a lot of money, but also they are fighting Oracle which has unlimited money, so, yeah)

For some reason it's not linked in the page itself.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-us-challenge-oracles-javascr...

https://deno.com/blog/javascript-tm-gofundme

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34. messe+nk[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 11:57:27
>>jamesb+Wd
The context:

> Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphising Larry Ellison. You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' -- lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don't fall into that trap about Oracle. — Brian Cantrill (https://youtu.be/-zRN7XLCRhc?t=33m1s)

35. sswane+al[view] [source] 2025-12-04 12:03:05
>>pavela+(OP)
While I completely agree with the sentiment, there are 100 million reasons why it will never happen. Having dealt with Oracle for over 20 years, I have seen their predatory relationship with their customers. They will hold onto this trademark in the hope that they can somehow monetize it.

At some point they will approach companies, likely tech companies that produce a product or offering that can't be described without using the word "JavaScript". They will offer a "convenient" licensing agreement of $50,000 per year for the use of their trademark.

They used this playbook with Java, an easier path because they had something more substantial than a trademark, but the approach will be the same. https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/165kzxg/oraclejav...

As Oracle's debt problems mount, the company seems increasingly likely to weaponize this trademark against companies—despite otherwise showing little interest in the word. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/w...

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48. DrScie+mp[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 12:33:43
>>re-thc+oj
Last phase of embrace, extend, extinguish eh?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...

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64. ndiddy+Ct[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 13:03:41
>>suyash+gh
If you read the original JavaScript press release ( https://web.archive.org/web/20020808041248/http://wp.netscap... ), it's mainly intended as a language to write glue code so Java applets (where the real application logic would go) can interact with a webpage:

> With JavaScript, an HTML page might contain an intelligent form that performs loan payment or currency exchange calculations right on the client in response to user input. A multimedia weather forecast applet written in Java can be scripted by JavaScript to display appropriate images and sounds based on the current weather readings in a region. A server-side JavaScript script might pull data out of a relational database and format it in HTML on the fly. A page might contain JavaScript scripts that run on both the client and the server. On the server, the scripts might dynamically compose and format HTML content based on user preferences stored in a relational database, and on the client, the scripts would glue together an assortment of Java applets and HTML form elements into a live interactive user interface for specifying a net-wide search for information.

> "Programmers have been overwhelmingly enthusiastic about Java because it was designed from the ground up for the Internet. JavaScript is a natural fit, since it's also designed for the Internet and Unicode-based worldwide use," said Bill Joy, co-founder and vice president of research at Sun. "JavaScript will be the most effective method to connect HTML-based content to Java applets."

This was all actually implemented. JavaScript functions could call Java applet methods and vice versa (see https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/technotes/guides/deplo... ). Of course over time everyone abandoned applets because of all the security problems, and JavaScript became a good enough language to write application logic directly in it. Still, there's more meaning behind the name than it just being a cynical marketing move.

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72. tobr+Zu[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 13:11:39
>>avstee+9t
They have linked to an example from one of the blog posts: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/14vnipl/rust_f...
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98. crazyg+rA[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 13:49:59
>>Stevvo+Ur
They already did, a year ago:

https://deno.com/blog/deno-v-oracle

This post is more than a year old.

115. rc1+sC[view] [source] 2025-12-04 14:03:29
>>pavela+(OP)
The Oracle Org Chart by Manu Cornet springs to mind reading this: https://www.globalnerdy.com/2011/07/03/org-charts-of-the-big...
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116. psycho+HC[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 14:04:45
>>siwata+Yc
That’s not retrocompatible with all the .js files out there though.

One possibility is thus just make some vocalic derivation, which align with well known spontaneous evolution of languages like ablaut[1]. Following that, and keeping the dance connotation, jive[2] is an option. Or closer on phonetic distance to java (/ˈd͡ʒɑː.və/), there is jovial (/ˈd͡ʒəʊ.vɪ.əl/ or /ˈd͡ʒoʊ.vɪ.əl/ or /ˈd͡ʒoʊ.vəl/)[3].

Might our jovial·script enjoy our life.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_ablaut

[2] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jive

[3] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jovial

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132. spider+bF[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 14:19:07
>>somegu+TB
Obligatory: https://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-...

> 1995 - Brendan Eich reads up on every mistake ever made in designing a programming language, invents a few more, and creates LiveScript. Later, in an effort to cash in on the popularity of Java the language is renamed JavaScript. Later still, in an effort to cash in on the popularity of skin diseases the language is renamed ECMAScript.

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138. psycho+9G[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 14:24:53
>>psycho+HC
Also jiva (/ˈd͡ʒiːvə/) is an option.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jiva

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmO4zvq9HtE

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147. lcnPyl+ZH[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 14:35:36
>>bayind+5B
https://github.com/microsoft/TypeScript/blob/main/LICENSE.tx...

The license is Apache 2.0. With the trademark, they can tell everyone not to call their thing TypeScript but at this point, given the license, they can't tell them not to copy it and change it and distribute that new thing (assuming the new distributors do so under the correct conditions).

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155. shagie+yL[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 14:54:24
>>embedd+7g
From days of old...

Invoking Applet Methods From JavaScript Code - https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/deployment/applet/in...

and

Invoking JavaScript Code From an Applet - https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/deployment/applet/in...

Aside from the "Java is cool, name everything Java" in the early days - there was scripting between the browser and the applet using a language named JavaScript.

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168. george+IP[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 15:16:17
>>shevy-+qD
If you can find the clip on you tube where he says it, it's even funnier. But sadly also true.

https://simonwillison.net

177. collin+aR[view] [source] 2025-12-04 15:24:25
>>pavela+(OP)
The last time this was brought up, "WebScript" was mentioned as a possible alternative name. (Like WebAssembly, WebSockets, WebRTC, etc.)

>>45297066

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180. Orygin+VR[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 15:28:04
>>onion2+0R
Afaik they already sued Deno: https://deno.com/blog/deno-v-oracle2

Edit: Seems I'm incorrect, see below

209. moritz+UZ[view] [source] 2025-12-04 16:13:09
>>pavela+(OP)
Deno is very good at marketing: they also have a nice page about the history of JS.

But just like with this JS trademark thing, it feels like they present themselves as spokespeople and spearhead for the whole JS community, which feels kind of misleading and grandiose.

The mentioned timeline site (link below) also has this issue: it slowly shifts focus from things like the first JS version, the creation of XMLHttpRequest, to later focusing on Deno milestones, as if these events would have had comparable impacts:

https://deno.com/blog/history-of-javascript

And that seems kind of dishonest and designed to nudge outsiders towards thinking Deno would be the default server runtime now, which doesn't seem to be true.

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212. striki+w11[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 16:20:26
>>TeaVMF+AW
Your comment seems incredibly confused.

1. Oracle is the litigious one here. My favorite example is that time they attacked a professor for publishing less-than-glowing benchmarks of their database: https://danluu.com/anon-benchmark/ What's to stop them from suing anyone using the term JavaScript in a way that isn't blessed by them? That's what Deno is trying to protect against.

2. Deno is filing a petition to cancel the trademark, not claim it themselves. This would return it to the public commons.

It should be obvious from these two facts that any member of the public that uses JavaScript should support this, regardless of what they think of Deno-the-company.

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239. culi+Ef1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 17:25:17
>>gianca+cD
Native type annotations in ecmascript is a serious proposal that gained some traction for quite a while but seems to have fallen off

https://github.com/tc39/proposal-type-annotations

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241. shagie+mg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 17:27:25
>>zdragn+rZ
> Java applets can invoke JavaScript functions present in the same web page as the applet. The LiveConnect Specification describes details about how JavaScript code communicates with Java code.

https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/deployment/applet/in...

> LiveConnect is a feature of web browsers which allows Java applets to communicate with the JavaScript engine in the browser, and JavaScript on the web page to interact with applets. The LiveConnect concept originated in the Netscape web browser, and to this date, Mozilla and Firefox browsers have had the most complete support for LiveConnect features. It has, however, been possible to call between JavaScript and Java in some fashion on all web browsers for a number of years.

https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/javase/liveconnect-...

--

The naming appears to be confused.

https://web.archive.org/web/20101115234856/http://www.oracle...

> Improved Java/JavaScript communication. The bridge between the JavaScript engine in the web browser and the Java programming language has been completely reimplemented. The new implementation is backward-compatible and features improved reliability, performance and cross-browser portability, for both Java calling JavaScript as well as JavaScript calling Java. Formerly Mozilla-specific "LiveConnect" functionality, such as the ability to call static Java methods, instantiate new Java objects and reference third-party packages from JavaScript, is now available in all browsers.

The "LiveConnect" relating to the original LiveScript maybe? And that LiveConnect was a Netscape/Mozilla driven thing.

My point was more one of "JavaScript was the glue between applets and the HTML page itself early in the development of the language."

Renaming LiveScript to JavaScript and promoting the LiveConnect functionality wasn't an unreasonable thing at the time.

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247. qingch+7l1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 17:48:34
>>crazyg+zA
The petition was partially dismissed and Deno was given leave to amend their petition (but no amended petition has yet been filed, that I can see). There was some initial worthless discovery and now a protective order has been granted allowing Oracle to file information they don't want out in public (e.g. trade secrets). That was at the beginning of November 2025 and the case is ongoing.

https://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=92086835&pty=CAN&eno...

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272. Natfan+hw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 18:42:39
>>Anarch+Pi1
not JScript[0]? or a script written in J[1]?

---

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JScript

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_(programming_language)

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278. anemat+DC1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 19:19:31
>>morshu+Jo1
Even syntactically, TS is not a superset of JS: https://anemato.de/blog/js-to-ts
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289. dkerst+sK1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 19:54:39
>>lepton+ds1
Already taken https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_(programming_language)
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309. stack_+fc2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 22:10:43
>>collin+aR
I really like "WebScript" but people will shorten it to "ws", which will make me think of the NPM WebSocket package [0] every time I see it!

[0] https://www.npmjs.com/package/ws

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331. ChuckM+Q13[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 05:04:22
>>raw_an+p13
I was one of the original developers of Java at Sun. Here's a picture of most of us at the time : http://mcmanis.com/chuck/original_java_team.html (this was originally in the HotJava distribution Sun gave out when the source was released.)

I was doing security, networking, crypto, and a bit of Solaris support along with others. Basically I was a 'systems' guy vs a 'language' guy like James, Arthur and Richard. We all participated in the integration with Navigator and had weekly meetings with Netscape while we were doing that.

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