zlacker

[parent] [thread] 45 comments
1. craftk+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-12-03 19:58:25
That is why I bought a steam deck: to financially support Valve's Linux efforts. I barely play games anymore but thanks to the Wine devs, CodeWeavers, and Valve, I no longer have to listen to the knuckle-draggers claiming that "Linux sucks because it can't play games". In fact, now it is the opposite: Linux is outperforming Windows[0].

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJXp3UYj50Q

replies(4): >>tencen+X3 >>tomber+Na >>txdv+jo >>stavro+bz
2. tencen+X3[view] [source] 2025-12-03 20:14:35
>>craftk+(OP)
They sold the Deck hardware at a loss, so I hope you've bought several full-price games to play on it since.
replies(1): >>forest+ch
3. tomber+Na[view] [source] 2025-12-03 20:46:54
>>craftk+(OP)
I have a near infinite amount of respect for Wine. It seems like for at least the last twenty years, Wine just keeps getting better and better with every release.

I don’t know for sure, but I suspect a lot of the work is spent sussing out weird edge cases with different binaries. This is tedious, thankless work, but it is necessary to have true Windows compatibility.

Wine and Proton have gotten so good that I don’t bother even checking compatibility before I buy games. The game will likely run just as well or better than on Windows and it is so consistently good that it’s not worth the small effort to check ProtonDB.

I do wish that they would get Office 2024 working on Wine. This isn’t a dig at the Wine devs at all, I am sure that it’s a very hard problem, but if I can get that then I will have even more ammunition to get my parents to drop windows entirely.

replies(2): >>d3Xt3r+le >>Schema+Rt
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4. d3Xt3r+le[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 21:05:08
>>tomber+Na
If its for your parents, then why not switch them to OnlyOffice? Its UI is very similar to MSO and it has excellent compatibility with the 2007+ file formats (much better than LibreOffice).
replies(1): >>tomber+0i
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5. forest+ch[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 21:19:32
>>tencen+X3
Has that been confirmed? Got a link?
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6. tomber+0i[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 21:24:22
>>d3Xt3r+le
Oh it’s not for lack of trying on my end. I tried getting them to play with OnlyOffice, and they said it was worse.

If it doesn’t say Microsoft Office on there, they will say it’s worse. Objectivity has little to do with it.

In a bit of fairness, my dad makes extremely liberal use of the VBA in Excel, and I am not sure how compatible OnlyOffice is for that.

replies(1): >>cromka+OF
7. txdv+jo[view] [source] 2025-12-03 21:54:46
>>craftk+(OP)
> knuckle-draggers claiming that "Linux sucks because it can't play games"

they still do it because you can't play all the multiplayer games with kernel level anticheats

replies(1): >>Zetaph+QD
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8. Schema+Rt[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 22:23:36
>>tomber+Na
Sadly Wine only seems to be working well for games. Every non gaming app I've tried to run does not work. It does seem like Valve and the gaming community is contributing almost all the effort on the project.
replies(2): >>tomber+5v >>passwo+sD
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9. tomber+5v[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 22:30:27
>>Schema+Rt
I haven't been able to get MSOffice working, but I didn't have much issue getting Toon Boom Animate to work. Which apps give you trouble?
10. stavro+bz[view] [source] 2025-12-03 22:53:33
>>craftk+(OP)
I wonder when games will start supporting Linux natively, especially after the Steam Machine is released.
replies(4): >>bsder+rB >>Master+6E >>Telane+NG >>mycall+T08
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11. bsder+rB[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:07:34
>>stavro+bz
It would be better for Linux to gain native support for some of the Windows and DirectX 12 APIs.

Linux gets a useful set of API targets and meets Windows devs more than halfway.

replies(1): >>stavro+1C
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12. stavro+1C[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:10:12
>>bsder+rB
What benefit would that have over the current situation, with Wine?
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13. passwo+sD[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:21:37
>>Schema+Rt
CodeWeavers sells app support: https://www.codeweavers.com/crossover
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14. Zetaph+QD[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:23:37
>>txdv+jo
Let them have their rootkits, good riddens
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15. Master+6E[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:25:34
>>stavro+bz
Given how good Proton is, I don't think it's useful to target Linux for most indie devs unless it's a one click build for multiple platforms. Even then, I've definitely had more issues with games with native Linux builds than Proton, where there's been a number of games I've set to use Proton over native to get better performance.
replies(1): >>pjmlp+Np6
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16. cromka+OF[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:37:05
>>tomber+0i
There's an alternative project that runs Windows apps in a VM but integrates them fully and transparently into your Linux desktop, with MS Office particularly tended to. The apps run as if they're native to Linux. It was discussed here just this past week.
replies(2): >>tomber+aG >>thesni+Tt1
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17. tomber+aG[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:40:24
>>cromka+OF
Yeah, Winboat, I might be part of that conversation you're referring to.

I haven't ruled that out yet. I am planning on trying to convince them on this next time they ask me for tech support.

replies(1): >>cromka+QG
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18. Telane+NG[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:45:04
>>stavro+bz
Given that older Linux builds of games consistently run worse than the Windows versions of those same games through Wine/Proton, I hope never.

Targeting Wine/Proton is the best of both worlds for everyone. Developers need to Just™ not use a few footguns that they mostly don't have reasons to touch anyway, and otherwise they don't need to change anything, while consumers get a game on that works just as well on Linux as on Windows.

replies(2): >>stavro+lH >>accoun+rV1
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19. cromka+QG[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:45:13
>>tomber+aG
If you do it would be interesting to hear if/how well they adapted to it. Might do same thing myself with my father.
replies(1): >>tomber+BI
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20. stavro+lH[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:48:40
>>Telane+NG
Yes but the Proton team needs to do work for basically each game to iron out the quirks, no?
replies(2): >>Telane+eI >>andoan+WT
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21. Telane+eI[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:54:20
>>stavro+lH
Not if you as a developer don't touch the footguns. Avoid those, and your game works fine with no problems, no intervention from Proton or Wine needed.
replies(1): >>stavro+LI
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22. tomber+BI[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:57:28
>>cromka+QG
I wouldn't hold my breath. I've been trying to get them to switch for the better part of a year, and even Windows Update completely bricking my mom's computer [1] (look at my post history if you want more details on that) wasn't enough to convince them. I'm not sure what else could happen outside of Bill Gates personally leaving a flaming bag of dog manure on their porch.

[1] I'll say it again; if anyone here works on Windows Update, please consider getting out of the software game and maybe consider a job in the exciting world of janitorial or food service, because you are exceedingly bad at the whole "software thing" and you should be ashamed of yourself and how much damage you have cost the entire world with your utterly incompetent software.

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23. stavro+LI[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:58:27
>>Telane+eI
Oh that's very interesting. Given the large compatibility tables I see, I thought Proton had to cater to almost a majority of games.
replies(1): >>Telane+TJ
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24. Telane+TJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 00:06:25
>>stavro+LI
It's the Pareto principle doing its thing. 80% of games were fixable by not a whole lot of fixes to Wine (I mean, it's still a lot of work, but once the work is done, you don't need to redo it for 1500 other games), while the remaining 20% are out there doing weird stuff and needs manual fixes of some kind.

If you don't do anything weird, you land in that 80% and everything works as it should. With developers noticing SteamOS being a thing, more of them start doing sanity checks to make sure it works on Linux, and that 80% starts growing to 90%.

Then there's the kernel anti-cheat that's unfixable though, which pulls the percentage down again.

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25. andoan+WT[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 01:29:44
>>stavro+lH
https://www.protondb.com/dashboard

Of the top 1000 games it seems 77% are playable. 40% of it needing "some tinkering" but I dont know what that means

replies(1): >>stavro+lG1
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26. thesni+Tt1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 07:56:35
>>cromka+OF
lsw :)
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27. stavro+lG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 09:47:18
>>andoan+WT
Hmm, that hasn't been my experience, basically 100% of the games I've tried have worked. Maybe it's because I don't play AAA titles.
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28. accoun+rV1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 11:57:58
>>Telane+NG
This is extremely shortsighted.
replies(1): >>Telane+U02
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29. Telane+U02[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 12:38:18
>>accoun+rV1
I fail to see why? It was pretty short sighted of developers to build Linux verions of their games back when they did, since most either perform poorly today, or just crash on more modern versions. I don't expect those games to get fixed any time soon. Far from it, I expect Linux versions to degrade as more and more of their dependencies change and Linux changes over time. I don't expect the situation to be different for native Linux ges made today.

Wine meanwhile works perfectly with 80+% of games, and those 20% that don't are all newer stuff or stuff that's never going to get a Linux version short of the Linux desktop actually getting of the ground.

replies(1): >>pjmlp+dq6
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30. pjmlp+Np6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 16:54:53
>>Master+6E
Until Microsoft decides it is enough.
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31. pjmlp+dq6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 16:56:18
>>Telane+U02
Because it relies on Microsoft's good will.
replies(1): >>Telane+vD6
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32. Telane+vD6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 17:53:46
>>pjmlp+dq6
Care to elaborate? Can Microsoft flip a switch tomorrow and make Wine or Proton non-viable or illegal? I can't see how that would happen.
replies(2): >>bigyab+rF6 >>pjmlp+1I6
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33. bigyab+rF6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 18:02:24
>>Telane+vD6
No, they cannot. It would require a huge DirectX API overhaul that would not propagate to hundreds of thousands of games that Proton supports.
replies(1): >>pjmlp+hI6
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34. pjmlp+1I6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 18:13:56
>>Telane+vD6
They control the technologies, their direction, how a future DirectX 13 or Windows 12 might look like, and have all the legal system on their side.

Also Microsoft Games Studios owns enough studios to make an impact.

Also Proton means zero game studios have to care Steam OS exists, they target Windows, use Visual Studio, and Valve is the one that has to make the needful if they care.

The same studios might even be using game engines that support GNU/Linux, yet letting Valve do the work is much more appealing.

replies(1): >>Telane+OP6
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35. pjmlp+hI6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 18:15:51
>>bigyab+rF6
It is enough to propagate to whole game studios owned by Microsoft Game Studios to make a visible impact, or take those games out of Steam.
replies(1): >>Telane+DQ6
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36. Telane+OP6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 18:48:28
>>pjmlp+1I6
Graphics APIs have trended to be lower level, running basically directly on the GPU. I doubt Microsoft will be able to convince game developers to go the other way just to get their fingers inbetween you and your game.

Microsoft has been absolute dogshit at releasing newer program APIs for developer to use. Wine doesn't support UWPs/appx just because there's no demand, since no-one uses the Windows Store. You expect that same Microsoft to get game devs to jump on their new DRM scheme?

Microsoft released even their darling Halo in 2020 and 2021, and have committed to release Halo: Campaign Evolved in 2026 on Steam. I can't think of any new titles under the Microsoft umbrella that hasn't also released in Steam. They've realised that battle is lost. They can change course, but that doesn't mean they'll get anything out of that.

Developers are already doing sanity checks and patches specific to SteamOS. That trend will continue if SteamOS or Linux gains ground. It doesn't matter that the foundation is Microsoft, because even if Microsoft goes bankrupt tomorrow, that foundation doesn't disappear, and even the most malicious Microsoft can't unmake reimplementations or translation layers of their APIs.

That same studio would prefer to make a stable Windows version than an unstable Linux version that might not even work in 5 years since it used some stupid dependency. ANd if they're sensible about it and do a sanity check with Proton, Valve doesn't even have to do any work for them outside of what's already been done.

replies(1): >>pjmlp+aZ6
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37. Telane+DQ6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 18:51:42
>>pjmlp+hI6
Ubisoft tried that with their newer games. It didn't work. I can't imagine it would work even if they took every single title of Steam that they could. All that would do is make those games not sell.
replies(1): >>pjmlp+gZ6
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38. pjmlp+aZ6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 19:26:39
>>Telane+OP6
Valve is the one making most of the work, devs target Windows, business as usual.

WinRT now runs on Win32 side as well, that is what new APIs like Windows ML, the abstraction used for all kinds of AI infrastructure now use, just as one example.

Microsoft Games Studio will do whatever they need to make shareholders happy, and if Steam gets in the way of XBox handhelds, maybe a change of heart will take place.

Who knows, Valve is the one that needs to worry, not Microsoft, they control the technology.

replies(1): >>Telane+Yia
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39. pjmlp+gZ6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 19:27:20
>>Telane+DQ6
Ubisoft doesn't own one of the top three games console, and the most sold desktop operating system in history.
replies(1): >>bigyab+Kf7
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40. bigyab+Kf7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 20:50:39
>>pjmlp+gZ6
Ubisoft made games people wanted to play. It's not a ton of leverage, but more than you can say for Microsoft studios.

What can Microsoft even threaten? No more Fallout 76 and Halo Infinite? Linux is banned from Bedrock Edition? They'll re-cancel the Perfect Dark reboot? Every punishment I try to imagine is like death-by-pillow-fighting.

replies(1): >>pjmlp+0p8
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41. mycall+T08[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-06 02:33:09
>>stavro+bz
Windows is a stable ABI to write games with, so unlikely.
replies(1): >>stavro+ec8
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42. stavro+ec8[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-06 04:37:56
>>mycall+T08
What's unstable about Linux's ABI?
replies(1): >>mycall+Opb
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43. pjmlp+0p8[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-06 08:04:16
>>bigyab+Kf7
Pillow fights hurt as well, it is a matter of pillow mastery.

Microsoft studios can eventually only be available in non-Steam stores for example, like PS, XBox console and PC app store.

replies(1): >>Telane+0ia
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44. Telane+0ia[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-07 03:02:36
>>pjmlp+0p8
Even Sony is releasing their games on Steam since they finally figured out that releasing their games for the PC is a more profitable venture than having them be console exclusives. Good luck convincing Microsoft of doing the opposite. Sure, they can make their games Xbox or MS Store exclusives, but it would be an irrational decision even if their end-goal is nothing but profit, since exclusivity clearly will lose them more sales than they can earn back in not having Steam be a middleman.
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45. Telane+Yia[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-07 03:15:37
>>pjmlp+aZ6
> and if Steam gets in the way of XBox handhelds, maybe a change of heart will take place.

Nay a single consumer will see it that way, but rather see Xbox getting in the way of Steam. An Xbox handheld which you can't run your Steam games on will probably be about as much a failure as the Series S and X, or an equivalent successor, which I can't see any way for Microsoft to turn the tide with, and can't imagine Microsoft not knowing that.

> Who knows, Valve is the one that needs to worry, not Microsoft, they control the technology.

Game devs aren't going to follow Microsoft's every whim and desire, and Microsoft can't rugpull current technologies out from under neither Valve nor game devs.

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46. mycall+Opb[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-07 16:58:57
>>stavro+ec8
It is stable too but why go through all the effort to port engines and libraries when you don't have to.
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