zlacker

[parent] [thread] 116 comments
1. jchw+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-12-03 17:27:25
> and modern multiplayer games with anti-cheat simply do not work through a translation layer, something Valve hopes will change in the future.

Although this is true for most games it is worth noting that it isn't universally true. Usermode anti-cheat does sometimes work verbatim in Wine, and some anti-cheat software has Proton support, though not all developers elect to enable it.

replies(9): >>gianca+m1 >>ZiiS+Z2 >>struan+Nm >>skizm+eW >>little+j41 >>LelouB+ak1 >>Andrex+BL1 >>jagerm+cZ1 >>im3w1l+eo2
2. gianca+m1[view] [source] 2025-12-03 17:32:56
>>jchw+(OP)
> though not all developers elect to enable it.

Looking at you Rust.

Edit:

And the rest of you. If even Microsoft's Masterchief Collection supports it, I Don't understand why everyone else does not.

https://areweanticheatyet.com/

replies(3): >>Quantu+d3 >>jshear+Q3 >>waffle+Uy
3. ZiiS+Z2[view] [source] 2025-12-03 17:41:08
>>jchw+(OP)
It works in the sense it allows you to run the game; but it does not prevent cheating. Obviously, Window's kernel anti-cheet is also only partially effective anyway, but the point of open-source is to give you control which includes cheating if you want to. Linux's profiling is just too good; full well documented sources for all libraries and kernel, even the graphics are running through easier to understand translation layers rather than signed blobs.
replies(2): >>reacto+ma >>jchw+Xc
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4. Quantu+d3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 17:42:33
>>gianca+m1
First i thought you meant the video game Rust.

Then I saw the arewe…yet url and thought you meant Rust the programming language

Then I visited the arewe…yet link and realized it was the Rust game you meant after all

replies(1): >>gianca+S3
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5. jshear+Q3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 17:45:17
>>gianca+m1
> I Don't understand why everyone else does not.

It's because the Linux versions of those anti-cheats are significantly weaker than their Windows counterparts.

replies(1): >>tapoxi+w5
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6. gianca+S3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 17:45:39
>>Quantu+d3
I know what you mean, sometimes I google Rust specific things (the coding language) and get Rust the game.
replies(3): >>spulla+s6 >>wincy+08 >>JoshTr+pe
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7. tapoxi+w5[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 17:52:52
>>jshear+Q3
It's telling that Valve uses a user space anti-cheat (VAC) for Counter-Strike 2, but the competitive community overwhelmingly rejects that and ops to use a third-party Windows-only kernel mode anti-cheat (FACEIT).
replies(4): >>jshear+r6 >>bee_ri+pm >>SirMas+9u >>Draike+Sv
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8. jshear+r6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 17:55:27
>>tapoxi+w5
I think even the "Major" tournaments that are officially sanctioned and sponsored by Valve, though organized by third parties, usually run on FACEIT or similar.
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9. spulla+s6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 17:55:28
>>gianca+S3
as a person that plays rust and writes rust I feel this all the time
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10. wincy+08[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 18:04:37
>>gianca+S3
For awhile googling “Swift” was like that with Taylor Swift results instead of the programming language.
replies(1): >>mikepu+39
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11. mikepu+39[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 18:10:01
>>wincy+08
Likely a case where Google figured out which one you meant through the telemetry of what you clicked on and how you refined your search, now that personalization is automatic. In my case, I get four regular results, which are the financial standard, the programming language, the wikipedia page for the programming language, and an ISP; then I get a "top stories" block that is all about the singer.

More tricky for the sibling comment with Rust, where either one could be valid.

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12. reacto+ma[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 18:16:44
>>ZiiS+Z2
These things do not prevent cheating at all. They are merely a remote control system that they can send instructions to look for known cheats. Cheating still exists and will always exist in online games.

You can be clever and build a random memory allocator. You can get clever and watch for frozen struct members after a known set operation, what you can’t do is prevent all cheating. There’s device layer, driver layer, MITM, emulation, and even now AI mouse control.

The only thing you can do is watch for it and send the ban hammer. Valve has a wonderful write up about client-side prediction recording so as to verify killcam shots were indeed, kill shots, and not aim bots (but this method is great for seeing those in action as well!)

replies(7): >>Goronm+Qa >>plufz+6b >>babypu+0c >>Hikiko+pG >>cortes+RI >>phendr+ea1 >>anvuon+sB1
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13. Goronm+Qa[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 18:19:43
>>reacto+ma
Cheating still exists and will always exist in online games.

Sure, but you still have to make a serious attempt or the experience will be terrible for any non-cheaters. Or you just make your game bad enough that no one cares. That's an option too.

replies(1): >>reacto+Rc
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14. plufz+6b[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 18:20:38
>>reacto+ma
That sounds like it does prevent cheating? But maybe doesn’t prevent ALL cheats. Or do you mean they work so poorly that it doesn’t make any difference at all?
replies(2): >>reacto+dc >>virapt+8r
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15. babypu+0c[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 18:25:08
>>reacto+ma
> These things do not prevent cheating at all.

Yes they do. They don't stop all cheating, but they raise the barrier to entry which means fewer cheaters.

I don't like arguments that sound like "well you can't stop all crime so you may as well not even try"

replies(1): >>reacto+wc
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16. reacto+dc[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 18:25:57
>>plufz+6b
I mean it works by someone saying look for DotaCheat4.exe and it searches for it. That’s basically it. Also if your engine has the ability to be hooked into (ahem, gta) it will detect that a process has been attached. It may do some memory scanning if they implemented the allocator from the sdk. What I’m saying is, it’s a crap shoot out there whether the devs did or not. Executives use it as a blanket as to not get sued. “We have anti-cheat”. They can claim it was “circumvented” or whatever. They are all garbage. BattleEye, EasyAntiCheat, Vanguard. If you don’t know, here LL giving a run down.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VtHlMTc8lR4&t=49s

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17. reacto+wc[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 18:27:12
>>babypu+0c
Ok, they prevent known cheats that the company has found online behind some subscription site run in the basement in Jersey. True. They do raise the bar, but they aren’t the barrier.
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18. reacto+Rc[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 18:29:26
>>Goronm+Qa
Other options exist but it’s not an option for these real-time games like FPS’s. I get it.

If you don’t need real-time packets and can deal with the old school architecture of pulses, there’s things you can do on the network to ensure security.

You do this too on real-time UDP it’s just a bit trickier. Prediction and analysis pattern discovery is really the only options thus far.

But I could be blowing smoke and know nothing about the layers of kernel integration these malware have developed.

replies(1): >>cybera+jm
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19. jchw+Xc[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 18:29:57
>>ZiiS+Z2
Anti-cheat is a misnomer; it's much more about detecting cheats more than it is preventing them. For people who are familiar with how modern anti-cheat systems work, actually cheating is really the easy part; trying to remain undetected is the challenge.

Because of that, usermode anti-cheat is definitely far from useless in Wine; it can still function insofar as it tries to monitor the process space of the game itself. It can't really do a ton to ensure the integrity of Wine directly, but usermode anti-cheat running on Windows can't do much to ensure the integrity of Windows directly either, without going the route of requiring attestation. In fact, for the latest anti-cheat software I've ever attempted to mess with, which to be fair was circa 2016, it is still possible to work around anti-cheat mechanisms by detouring the Windows API calls themselves, to the extent that you can. (If you be somewhat clever it can be pretty useful, and has the bonus of being much harder to detect obviously.)

The limitation is obviously that inside Wine you can't see most Linux resources directly using the same APIs, so you can't go and try to find cheat software directly. But let's be honest, that approach isn't really terribly relevant anymore since it is a horribly fragile and limited way to detect cheats.

For more invasive anti-cheat software, well. We'll see. But just because Windows is closed source hasn't stopped people from patching Windows itself or writing their own kernel drivers. If that really was a significant barrier, Secure Boot and TPM-based attestation wouldn't be on the radar for anti-cheat vendors. Valve however doesn't seem keen to support this approach at all on its hardware, and if that forces anti-cheat vendors to go another way it is probably all the better. I think the secure boot approach has a limited shelf life anyways.

replies(4): >>buildb+ah >>Xss3+7l >>Hikiko+pI >>MangoT+lD2
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20. JoshTr+pe[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 18:36:26
>>gianca+S3
/r/rust, the subreddit for the Rust language, regularly (every 1-2 days at most) gets posts meant for /r/playrust, the subreddit for the Rust game. I genuinely don't know how people manage to get as far as posting without noticing where they are.
replies(3): >>robrts+Bm >>eriker+Sm >>rollca+z92
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21. buildb+ah[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 18:49:52
>>jchw+Xc
Speaking of Anti-Cheat and secure boot, you need SB for Battlefield 6. The game won't start without it. So it's happening!

I don't hate the lack of cheating compared to older Battlefield games if I am going to be honest.

replies(3): >>koutei+ej >>lukan+gn >>torgin+T41
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22. koutei+ej[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 18:59:11
>>buildb+ah
> Speaking of Anti-Cheat and secure boot, you need SB for Battlefield 6. The game won't start without it. So it's happening!

I'm curious, does anyone know how exactly they check for this? How was it actually made unspoofable?

replies(3): >>jshear+nn >>vablin+rp >>kbolin+Ft
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23. Xss3+7l[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:10:17
>>jchw+Xc
Anticheat devs could REALLY benefit by having some data scientists involved.

Any player responding to ingame events (enemy appeared) with sub 80ms reaction times consistently should be an automatic ban.

Is it ever? No.

Given good enough data a good team of data scientists would be able to make a great set of rules using statistical analysis that effectively ban anyone playing at a level beyond human.

In the chess of fps that is cs, even a pro will make the wrong read based on their teams limited info of the game state. A random wallhacker making perfect reads with limited info over several matches IS flaggable...if you can capture and process the data and compare it to (mostly) legitimate player data.

replies(4): >>daedrd+Em >>lukan+Wm >>bcrosb+2u >>strbea+LU
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24. cybera+jm[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:15:55
>>reacto+Rc
> But I could be blowing smoke and know nothing about the layers of kernel integration these malware have developed.

Kernel level? The SOTA cheats use custom hardware that uses DMA to spy on the game state. There are now also purely external cheating devices that use video capture and mouse emulation to fully simulate a human.

replies(2): >>jshear+CG >>strbea+gT
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25. bee_ri+pm[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:16:17
>>tapoxi+w5
Eh, some employers also have root for your work PC, that’s different from asking to install a rootkit on your personal PC.
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26. robrts+Bm[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:17:36
>>JoshTr+pe
It’s probably because the “create a Reddit post” form doesn’t require you to even visit the subreddit you are posting to. It DOES show you the rules/sidebar of the subreddit you are about to post to (for /r/rust it includes a link to /r/playrust for the gamers) but apparently many aren’t seeing that.
replies(1): >>SAI_Pe+lM
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27. daedrd+Em[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:17:54
>>Xss3+7l
Tomorrow the cheats will be back with human looking reaction speeds and inhuman decision making that is indistinguishable from expert players.
replies(1): >>Xss3+Ga2
28. struan+Nm[view] [source] 2025-12-03 19:18:32
>>jchw+(OP)
Arc Raiders is a great example of a modern and popular multiplayer game that works with proton. I haven't heard about it having a problem with cheating.
replies(2): >>vablin+Ar >>d3Xt3r+HK
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29. eriker+Sm[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:18:46
>>JoshTr+pe
It is hard to perceive that which you are not aware exists even with obvious evidence in your face
replies(1): >>Dylan1+vT
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30. lukan+Wm[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:18:54
>>Xss3+7l
"Any player responding to ingame events (enemy appeared) with sub 80ms reaction times consistently should be an automatic ban."

Can you define what "reacting" means exactly in a shooter, that you can spot it in game data reliable to apply automatic bans?

replies(2): >>kelsey+oB >>webere+w22
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31. lukan+gn[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:20:29
>>buildb+ah
Lack of cheating in BF6?

Afaik there have been wallhacks and aimbots since the open beta.

replies(1): >>buildb+PJ
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32. jshear+nn[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:21:00
>>koutei+ej
They also require TPM, which I think facilitates remote attestation for secure boot.
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33. vablin+rp[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:30:30
>>koutei+ej
The basic explanation is that it prevents binaries that are not signed by default from being loaded during the boot process. It only restricts the booting process in the uefi stage. If an executable has been modified, then it will not load due to secure boot. Technically there is nothing stopping you from modifying say winload.efi and signing it with your own key then adding that key to your bios keystore so that it will pass secure boot checks and still use secure boot.

I think the biggest thing is that the anticheat devs are using Microsoft's CA to check if your efi executable was signed by Microsoft. If that was the case then its all good and you are allowed to play the game you paid money for.

I haven't tested a self-signed secure boot for battlefield 6, I know some games literally do not care if you signed your own stuff, only if secure boot is actually enabled

edit: Someone else confirmed they require TPM to be enabled too meaning yeah, they are using remote attestation to verify the validity of the signed binary

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34. virapt+8r[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:38:57
>>plufz+6b
It makes cheating harder and the timeline to a cheat product gets longer than the iteration speed of anticheat. Kind of like fancy locks don't prevent break ins, just take longer to pick and require more specialised tools.
replies(1): >>nialv7+oA
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35. vablin+Ar[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:41:09
>>struan+Nm
I think a big portion of that is the rather poorly made anti-tamper solution they are using called 'Theia' most cheat developers are too unintelligent to correctly reverse engineer this kind of binary obfuscation
replies(1): >>cuvinn+tu
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36. kbolin+Ft[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:51:05
>>koutei+ej
Disclaimer: This is only an educated guess based upon public info. Also, it's impossible to make something truly unspoofable, but it isn't that hard to raise the bar for spoofing pretty high.

There are two additional concepts built upon the TPM and Secure Boot that matter here, known as Trusted Boot [1,2] and Remote Attestation [2].

Importantly, every TPM has an Endorsement Key (EK) built into it, which is really an asymmetric keypair, and the private key cannot be extracted through any normal means. The EK is accompanied by a certificate, which is signed by the hardware manufacturer and identifies the TPM model. The major manufacturers publish their certificate authorities [3].

So you can get the TPM to digitally sign a difficult-to-forge, time-stamped statement using its EK. Providing this statement along with the TPM's EK certificate on demand attests to a remote party that the system currently has a valid TPM and that the boot process wasn't tampered with.

Common spoofing techniques get defeated in various ways:

- Stale attestations will fail a simple timestamp check

- Forged attestations will have invalid signatures

- A fake TPM will not have a valid EK certificate, or its EK certificate will be self-signed, or its EK certificate will not have a widely recognized issuer

- Trusted Boot will generally expose the presence of obvious defeat mechanisms like virtualization and unsigned drivers

- DMA attacks can be thwarted by an IOMMU, the existence/lack of which can be exposed through Trusted Boot data as well

- If someone manages to extract an EK but shares it online, it will be obvious when it gets reused by multiple users

- If someone finds a vulnerability in a TPM model and shares it online, the model can be blacklisted

Even so, I can still think of an avenue of attack, which is to proxy RA requests to a different, uncompromised system's TPM. The tricky parts are figuring out how to intercept these requests on the compromised system, how to obtain them from the uncompromised system without running any suspicious software, and knowing what other details to spoof that might be obtained through other means but which would contradict the TPM's statement.

[1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/operating...

[2]: https://docs.system-transparency.org/st-1.3.0/docs/selected-...

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module#Endors...

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37. bcrosb+2u[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:52:12
>>Xss3+7l
We used to track various timings in some of our games to detect cheating. Cheaters find out and change their cheat engines to perform within plausible human reactions. Which is a benefit - now the cheating isn't obvious to everyone, but it still happens. I don't know if you could sprinkle data scientist dust on the problem and come up with a viable cross-game solution though.
replies(1): >>Xss3+Yd2
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38. SirMas+9u[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:52:44
>>tapoxi+w5
Cheating in CS2 is rampant and VAC2 seems to be just about useless.

FACEIT is significantly more effective.

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39. cuvinn+tu[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 19:54:53
>>vablin+Ar
I'm curious, what makes it poorly made if it is working? I don't know anything about it or the game or the state of cheating in the game.
replies(1): >>vablin+PD
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40. Draike+Sv[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 20:00:51
>>tapoxi+w5
I mean, people are dumb.

Anti cheats are as much a marketing ploy as they're actual anti cheats. People believe everyone is cheating so it must be true. People believe nobody bypasses the FACEIT anti cheat so it must be true. Neither of those are correct.

Riot revels in this by marketing their anti cheat, but there are always going to be cheaters. And sooner or later we will have vulnerabilities in their kernel spyware. I much rather face a few cheaters here and there (which is not as common as people make it to be on high trust factor).

You think tournament organizers or pro players know the first thing about anti cheats? They buy the marketing just like everybody else.

replies(1): >>enneff+3M
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41. waffle+Uy[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 20:13:25
>>gianca+m1
Wow, what a cool site. Just learned that Hunt: Showdown is supported in Linux. And it wasn't the first time I checked. Will love to give it a try.
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42. nialv7+oA[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 20:20:03
>>virapt+8r
As they say, locks only stop honest people.
replies(2): >>raydev+JM1 >>retsib+nQ1
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43. kelsey+oB[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 20:24:17
>>lukan+Wm
Anisotropic mouse movement?

Or perhaps the 0ms-80ms distribution of mouse movement matches the >80ms mouse movement distribution within some bounds. I'm thinking KL divergence between the two.

The Kolmogorov-Smirnov Test for two-dimensional data?

There's a lot of interesting possible approaches that can be tuned for arbitrary sensitivity and specificity.

replies(2): >>lukan+vE >>dchftc+vZ1
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44. vablin+PD[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 20:35:24
>>cuvinn+tu
Poor performance and not super advanced. There are better options on the market that have less performance impact and better obfuscation
replies(1): >>dralle+nd1
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45. lukan+vE[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 20:38:35
>>kelsey+oB
Like another commentor mentioned, I think that only works for a specific cheat(engine) - as long as they don't adjust (and randomize more for example). If it could be solved with some statistics, I think it would have been done already. I ain't a statistician though, but if you feel confident, I think there is quite some money in it, if you find a real world solution.
replies(2): >>kelsey+RF >>Xss3+Pd2
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46. kelsey+RF[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 20:45:42
>>lukan+vE
To be sure. There's at most 6 frames of data per event to work with at 60fps. It's an interesting problem and well suited to statistics.
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47. Hikiko+pG[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 20:48:26
>>reacto+ma
They do prevent some cheating methods on Window, like blocking other processes from reading/writing game process memory.
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48. jshear+CG[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 20:49:22
>>cybera+jm
> The SOTA cheats use custom hardware that uses DMA to spy on the game state.

And the SOTA anti-cheats now use IOMMU shenanigans to keep DMA devices from seeing the game state. The arms race continues.

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49. Hikiko+pI[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 20:57:30
>>jchw+Xc
They do prevent some cheating methods, like read/write memory from other userspace processes.
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50. cortes+RI[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 21:00:37
>>reacto+ma
> These things do not prevent cheating at all.

I feel like this is the same as saying "seatbelts don't prevent car accident deaths at all", just because people still die in car accidents while wearing seat belts.

Just because something isn't 100% effective doesn't mean it doesn't provide value. There is a LOT less cheating in games with good anti-cheat, and it is much more pleasant to play those games because of it. There is a benefit to making it harder to cheat, even if it doesn't make it impossible.

replies(1): >>SeanAn+bZ
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51. buildb+PJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 21:06:36
>>lukan+gn
Perhaps, I have yet to experience anything like what the older games had though.

It might just be the game too - I do think the auto aim is a bit high because I feel like I make aimbot like shots from time to time. And depending on the mode BF6 _wall hacks for you_ if there are players in an area outside of where they are supposed to be defending. I was pretty surprised to see a little red floating person overlay behind a wall.

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52. d3Xt3r+HK[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 21:12:22
>>struan+Nm
Marvel Rivals, Age of Empires 2 DE, Path of Exile 1/2, Last Epoch, Fall Guys are other such examples. In fact, Marvel Rivals even explicitly mentioned Bazzite in one of their changelogs! I can't recall an instance when a major game name-dropped a (relatively) minor Linux distro like that.
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53. enneff+3M[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 21:17:53
>>Draike+Sv
The marketing works because online games get destroyed by cheats. Losing in online games can be full of “feel bad” moments, even without cheaters (network issues, cheesy tactics, balance issues). To think that your opponent won because they outright cheated just makes you wanna quit.

I’ve seen so many players saying “look you can own my entire pc just please eliminate the cheating.”

It would be great to see more of a web of trust thing instead of invasive anti cheat. That would make it harder for people to get into the games in the first place though so I don’t know if developers would really want to go that way.

replies(2): >>stalfi+sv2 >>Draike+Ka7
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54. SAI_Pe+lM[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 21:19:15
>>robrts+Bm
"Banner blindness" applies to the rules/sidebar. The user sees it, notices it's not what they're looking to interact with, and ignores it. The same thing happens for modal dialogues where the user will click whatever button makes the message go away without bothering to read the message, only the button text.
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55. strbea+gT[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 21:53:34
>>cybera+jm
You'll never stop the arms race, but requiring specialized hardware to cheat is as close as you'll get to a decisive victory against cheats.

The vast majority of cheaters in most games are not sophisticated users. Ease of access and use is the biggest issue.

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56. Dylan1+vT[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 21:54:23
>>eriker+Sm
That's not a great explanation when there's, you know, rust the material.
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57. strbea+LU[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 22:01:43
>>Xss3+7l
> Any player responding to ingame events (enemy appeared) with sub 80ms reaction times consistently should be an automatic ban.

It's really much more nuanced than that. Counter-Strike 2 has already implemented this type of feature, and it immediately got some clear false positives. There are many situations where high level players play in a predictive, rather than reactive, manner. Pre-firing is a common strategy that will always look indistinguishable from an inhuman reaction time. So is tap-firing at an angle that you anticipate a an opponent may peek you from.

replies(2): >>ThatPl+sf1 >>Xss3+le2
58. skizm+eW[view] [source] 2025-12-03 22:09:24
>>jchw+(OP)
Valve is the only company I'd let inject anti-cheat software directly into my veins if it meant I could play CS and be sure others were not cheating haha.
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59. SeanAn+bZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 22:23:40
>>cortes+RI
I don't think that analogy holds because the environment isn't actively in an arms race against seatbelts.

The qualifier "good" for "good anti-cheat" is doing a lot of heavy lifting. What was once good enough is now laughably inadequate. We have followed that thread to its logical conclusion with the introduction of kernel-level anti-cheat. That has proven to be insufficient, unsurprisingly, and, given enough time, the act of bypassing kernel-level anti-cheat will become commoditized just like every other anti-cheat prior.

replies(2): >>phaino+y81 >>raydev+DM1
60. little+j41[view] [source] 2025-12-03 22:52:45
>>jchw+(OP)
I honestly don't know why so many people say that anti-cheat with Proton or SteamMachines won't work. SteamOS is an immutable Linux - especially with their own SteamMachine they can enable SecureBoot and attestation that you are using the SteamOS verbatim efi boot file, kernel, and corret system fs image - all signed by Valve. Just as Battlefield 6 does on windows (relying on SecureBoot). That would still allow you to install other OSes on your SteamDeck/SteamMachine, but it would fail the anticheat attestation. I personally see the push in hardware from Valve particular so that they can support anti-cheat on linux.
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61. torgin+T41[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 22:55:53
>>buildb+ah
I remember reading that Microsoft is trying to crack down on kernel level anti-cheats. Just like anti-virus, they mess with the operating system on a deep level, redirecting/intercepting API calls, sometimes on undocumented and unstable internal APIs.

Not only does this present a huge security risk, it can break existing software and the OS itself. These anti-cheats tend not to be written by people intimately familiar with Windows kernel development, and they cause regressions in existing software which the users then blame on Windows.

That's why Microsoft did Windows Defender and tried to kill off 3rd party anti-virus.

replies(3): >>varenc+pi1 >>Andrex+nL1 >>71bw+Ca2
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62. phaino+y81[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:20:09
>>SeanAn+bZ
> the environment isn't actively in an arms race against seatbelts.

I would beg to differ. In the US at least, there does seem to be a hidden arms race between safety features and the environment (in the form of car size growth)

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63. phendr+ea1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:30:43
>>reacto+ma
That's easy to say. But they do prevent some cheating. Don't believe me? Consider the simplest case: No anti-cheat whatsoever. You can just hook into the rendering engine and draw walls at 50% transparency. That's the worst case. Now, we add minimal anti-cheat that convolutes the binary with lots of extra jumps and loops at runtime. Now, someone needs to spend time figuring out the pattern. That effort isn't free. Now, people have to pay for cheats. Guess what? Visa doesn't want to handle payment processing for your hacks & cheats business. So now you're using sketchy payment processors based out of a third-world country. Guess what else? People will create fake hacks & cheats websites that use those same payment processors, and will just take people's money and never deliver the cheats. You get to try to differentiate yourself from literal scammers, how are you going to do that? You can't put the Visa logo on your website. Because you're legit, and you don't want to get sued. Then, the anti-cheat adds heuristic detection for cheat processes. The anti-cheat company BUYS the cheats and reverse-engineers them and improves the heuristics. then the game company makes everyone sign up with a phone number, and permabans that phone number when they're caught cheating. Now some gamers don't want to risk getting banned. Saying that these factors simply don't exist or are insignificant is certainly one of the opinions of all time.
replies(2): >>jorl17+ez1 >>Kolmog+R62
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64. dralle+nd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-03 23:53:02
>>vablin+PD
I mean the performance of the game otherwise is pretty decent. Frankly better than average.
replies(1): >>vablin+zM1
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65. ThatPl+sf1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 00:07:45
>>strbea+LU
There's well analyzed video of a pro player streaming who got temporarily banned for something like this. It might not even have been pre-fire, but post-fire at a different enemy retreating at the same position

https://youtu.be/SFyVRdRcilQ

replies(1): >>Xss3+pe2
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66. varenc+pi1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 00:31:56
>>torgin+T41
Apple has gone a similar way with effectively killing kernel extensions for the same reasons. In theory all the kernel extensions use cases have been replaced with "System Extensions" but of course not the same.
67. LelouB+ak1[view] [source] 2025-12-04 00:43:47
>>jchw+(OP)
Maybe they'll secretely fund an open source project to emulate only the windows kernel calls that Anti Cheats use.
replies(1): >>stevef+kq1
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68. stevef+kq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 01:40:23
>>LelouB+ak1
As a former cheat developer, I think it is impossible since it is digging into some specific stuff of Windows. For example, some anti-cheat uses PsSetCreateThreadNotifyRoutine and PsSetCreateThreadNotifyRoutine to strip process handle permission, and those thing can't be well emulated, there is simply nothing in the Linux kernel nor in the Wine server to facilitate those yet. What about having a database of games and anticheat that does that, and what if the anticheat also have a whitelist for some apps to "inject" itself into the game process? Those are also needed to be handled and dealt with.

Plus, there are some really simple side channel exploits that your whitelisted app have vulns that you can grab a full-access handle to your anticheat protected game, rendering those kernel level protection useless, despite it also means external cheat and not full blown internal cheat, since interal cheat carrys way more risk, but also way more rewardings, such as fine-level game modification, or even that some 0days are found on the game network stack so maybe there is a buffer overflow or double-free, making sending malicious payload to other players and doing RCEs possible. (It is still possible to do internal cheat injection from external cheat, using techniques such as manual mapping/reflective DLL injecction, that effectively replicates PE loading mechanism, and then you hijack some execution routine at some point to call your injected-allocated code, either through creating a new thread, hijacking existing thread context, APC callback hijack or even exception vector register hijacking, and in general, hijack any kinds of control flow, but anticheat software actively look for those "illegal" stuff in memory and triggers red flag and bans you immediately)

From what I've seen over the years, the biggest problem for anticheat in Linux is that there is too much liberty and freedom, but the anticheat/antivirus is an antithesis to liberty and freedom. This is because anticheat wants to use strong protection mechanism borrowed from antivirus technique to provide a fair gaming experience, at the cost of lowering framerates and increasing processing power, and sometimes BSOD.

And I know it is very cliche at this point, but I always love to quote Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety". I therefore only keep Windows to play games lately, and switched to a new laptop, installed CachyOS on it, and transfered all my development stuff over to the laptop. You can basically say I have my main PC at home as a more "free" xbox.

Speaking of xbox, they have even more strict control over the games, that one of the anticheat technique, HVCI (hypervisor-protected code integrity) or VBS, is straight out of the tech from xbox, that it uses Hyper-V to isolate game process and main OS, making xbox impossible to jailbreak. In Windows it prevents some degree of DMA attack by leveragng IOMMU and encrypting the memory content beforehand to makd sure it is not visible to external devices over the PCIe bus.

That said, in other words, it is ultimately all about the tradeoff between freedom and control.

A similar concept, trusted computing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing

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69. jorl17+ez1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 03:01:12
>>phendr+ea1
100% agree. This is exactly the kind of big picture thinking that so many people often seem to miss. I did too, when I was young and thought the world was just filled with black and white, good vs evil dichotomies
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70. anvuon+sB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 03:23:36
>>reacto+ma
I don't know why you brought up VAC as an example. It is a horrible AC, so bad so that an entire service (FaceIT) was built to capitalize on that.

VAC is still a laughing joke in CS2, literally unplayable when you reached 15k+. Riot Vanguard is extremely invasive, but it's leaps and bounds a head of VAC.

And Valve's banning waves long after the fact doesn't improve the players experience at all. CS2 is F2P, alts are easy to get, cheating happens in alost every single high-ranked game, players experience is shit.

replies(1): >>treyd+xN1
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71. Andrex+nL1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 05:22:58
>>torgin+T41
If I remember right, it played a role in the Crowdstrike failures. So yeah wouldn't surprise me MS is hoping to get rid of it.
72. Andrex+BL1[view] [source] 2025-12-04 05:25:16
>>jchw+(OP)
Online cheaters are first against the wall when I become dictator...
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73. vablin+zM1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 05:36:53
>>dralle+nd1
Could be better without Theia but yeah the developers have done a really good job with ARC Raiders
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74. raydev+DM1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 05:37:52
>>SeanAn+bZ
No. The same way piracy has been diminished in the mainstream by years of lawsuits and jailtime against the loudest most available sources, the strongest anti-cheats have suppressed the easiest and cheapest paths to cheating on AAA games. Piracy hasn't gone away, but the number of people doing it peaked last decade.

Anti-cheat makers doesn't need to eliminate cheating completely, they just need to capture enough cheating (and ban unpredictably) that average people are mostly discouraged. As long as cheat-creators have to scurry around in secrecy and guard their implementations until the implementation is caught, the "good" cheats will never be a commodity on mainstream well-funded games with good anti-cheat.

Cheat-creators have to do the hard hacking and put their livelihoods on the line, they make kids pay up for that.

replies(1): >>reacto+lx2
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75. raydev+JM1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 05:39:07
>>nialv7+oA
The honest people are a larger group than the dishonest people.

And being real, the zero-day cheats are closely guarded and trickled out and sold for high prices as other cheats get found out, so for AAA games, the good cheats are priced out of comfort zone and anyone who attempts the lazy/cheap cheats is banned pretty quickly. A significant portion of the dishonest becomes honest through laziness or self-preservation. Only a select few are truly committed to dishonesty enough to put money and their accounts on the line.

Same way there are fewer murderers and thieves than there are non-murderers and non-thieves (at least in western countries).

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76. treyd+xN1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 05:48:27
>>anvuon+sB1
> CS2 is F2P

Not anymore for the competitive gamemodes. This was reversed a while ago.

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77. retsib+nQ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 06:21:44
>>nialv7+oA
They are wrong, though. Locks also stop people who would happily commit an opportunistic theft but who lack the necessary tools or skills, people who would trespass if they could retain some plausible deniability ("oops, I didn't see the signs" vs. "oops, I didn't realise I wasn't supposed to cut that padlock"), and so on.
78. jagerm+cZ1[view] [source] 2025-12-04 07:56:53
>>jchw+(OP)
companies will go where the money is. If Valve enables, say EA, to have their yearly franchise and in-game-stores on mobile devices, they will find a way.
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79. dchftc+vZ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 07:58:49
>>kelsey+oB
Throwing in ML jargon and going straight to modelling before understanding the problem reduces your credibility as a data scientist in front of engineers and stakeholders.

As always, one of the most difficult parts is getting good features and data. In this case one difficulty is measuring and defining the reaction time to begin with.

In Counter Strike you rely on footsteps to guess if someone is around the corner and start shooting when they come close. For far away targets, lots of people camp at specifc spots and often shoot without directly sighting someone if they anticipate someone crossing - the hit rate may be low but it's a low cost thing to do. Then you have people not hiding too well and showing a toe. Or someone pinpointing the position of an enemy based on information from another player. So the question is, what is the starting point for you to measure the reaction?

Now let's say you successfully measured the reaction time and applied a threshold of 80ms. Bot runners will adapt and sandbag their reaction time, or introduce motions to make it harder to measure mouse movements, and the value of your model now is less than the electricity needed to run it.

So with your proposal to solve the reaction time problem with KL divergence. Congratulations, you just solved a trivial statistics problem to create very little business value.

replies(2): >>Xss3+sc2 >>kelsey+jT3
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80. webere+w22[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 08:28:53
>>lukan+Wm
>Can you define what "reacting" means exactly in a shooter

A human can't really, which is why you need to bring in ML. Feed it enough game states of legit players vs known cheaters, and it will be able to find patterns.

replies(2): >>lukan+I42 >>Xss3+vd2
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81. lukan+I42[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 08:49:58
>>webere+w22
And what happens to that pattern, when the cheat engine adjusts? What happens to the enraged players that got wrongly banned for cheating?
replies(2): >>Xss3+fc2 >>webere+kj6
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82. Kolmog+R62[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 09:05:30
>>phendr+ea1
> You can just hook into the rendering engine and draw walls at 50% transparency

A properly designed game should not send the position of ennemies out of view

replies(2): >>dontla+u72 >>DrammB+j03
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83. dontla+u72[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 09:12:26
>>Kolmog+R62
That is not always possible for genres with fast gameplay like most shooters. It's quite common for player movement to be able to put an enemy in view before the light could've round-tripped from the server.

This is generally the anti-cheat problem. Certain genres have gameplay that cannot be implemented without trusting the client at least some of the time.

replies(1): >>phendr+h92
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84. phendr+h92[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 09:26:38
>>dontla+u72
This is correct, the correct amount of over-sharing by the server is non-zero, because otherwise you give a HUGE advantage for slight ping differences.
replies(1): >>dontla+Lg2
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85. rollca+z92[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 09:29:47
>>JoshTr+pe
You are an average person. A program you're using crashes.

The only non-generic word you see in the crash message is "SQLite".

You look it up, find SQLite, and you bother the developers for help.

The problem is as old as labels.

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86. 71bw+Ca2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 09:38:49
>>torgin+T41
Please provide source if you manage to find it as I'm deeply interested in said article.
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87. Xss3+Ga2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 09:39:07
>>daedrd+Em
Good! Thats actually one of the goals. Reduce the advantage cheaters can gain to within human bounds. They can cheat to feel like a good player, but not a god.
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88. Xss3+fc2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 09:53:25
>>lukan+I42
If anyone is wrongly banned the system is too sensitive. Let it capture data for a month before banning someone. Ensure the confidence is crazy high.
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89. Xss3+sc2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 09:55:20
>>dchftc+vZ1
More like congrats, you just made every cheater far less effective by forcing them to play nearer to human limits.

You arent eliminating cheaters, that's impossible, you are limiting their impact.

replies(1): >>Akrony+Kw2
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90. Xss3+vd2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 10:03:52
>>webere+w22
There is no need for ML. Games arent the real world.

A suitable game engine would have knowledge of when a shadow, player, grenade, noise, or other reactable event occurs for a given client.

Especially if games arent processed in real time but processed later based on a likelihood of cheating drawn from other stats.

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91. Xss3+Pd2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 10:06:45
>>lukan+vE
Even randomisation would cause their aim to be statistically different to a normal players aim over time.
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92. Xss3+Yd2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 10:08:24
>>bcrosb+2u
Thats a win. Preventing cheaters gaining superhuman advantage significantly reduces their impact.
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93. Xss3+le2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 10:11:38
>>strbea+LU
You mustve missed the part where i spoke of consistency?

Ive played at the pro level. Nobody prefires with perfect robotic consistency.

I dont care if it takes 50 matches of data for the statistical model to call it inhuman.

Valve has enough data that they could easily make the threshold for a ban something like '10x more consistent at pre-firing than any pro has ever been' with a high confidence borne over many engagements in many matches.

replies(1): >>danari+YR2
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94. Xss3+pe2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 10:12:37
>>ThatPl+sf1
Valve need to tweak the model so that it requires a higher confidence level before a ban, and to reduce false positives in their data capture methods. This is a mistake but doesnt kill the idea.
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95. dontla+Lg2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 10:35:50
>>phendr+h92
It's even worse, the lowest theoretical latency possible based on speed of light alone is not low enough for the speed of movement in many shooters, if the server hid all immediately invisible information.
96. im3w1l+eo2[view] [source] 2025-12-04 11:40:36
>>jchw+(OP)
I think if Linux gaming becomes popular someone may come up with a solution where you run a native linux kernel-mode anticheat. That somehow connects to the wine-hosted game.

I'm not sure how I feel about that, but it's what I think will happen.

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97. stalfi+sv2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 12:32:27
>>enneff+3M
To me the "web of trust" element frankly seems like the only viable solution. And in fact, its almost here already: https://playsafeid.com/

I predict that hacker news in particular will dislike using facial recognition technology to allow for permanent ban-hammers, but frankly this neatly solves 95% of the problem in a simple, intuitive way. Frankly, the approach has the capacity to revitalize entire genres, and theres lots of cool stuff you could potentially implement when you can guarantee that one account = one person.

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98. Akrony+Kw2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 12:42:29
>>Xss3+sc2
If cheaters play indistingushable from normal people, the seems like mission accomplished.
replies(2): >>Xss3+8N2 >>dchftc+zS2
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99. reacto+lx2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 12:46:25
>>raydev+DM1
Piracy didn’t go anywhere, it got corporate sponsorship.

Having some anti-cheat is better than no anti-cheat but my point is it’s not a shield. It’s a cheese grater.

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100. MangoT+lD2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 13:26:16
>>jchw+Xc
Motivated cheaters will just hook into PCI directly. Cheating is just part of pc gaming.
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101. Xss3+8N2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 14:28:31
>>Akrony+Kw2
Yep
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102. danari+YR2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 14:55:16
>>Xss3+le2
> Nobody prefires with perfect robotic consistency.

Then all you need to do to fool this anticheat is to add some randomness to the cheat.

replies(1): >>Xss3+EY2
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103. dchftc+zS2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 14:57:48
>>Akrony+Kw2
Cheaters don't have to play like normal people to avoid detection. They just have to make it expensive to police them. For example, the game developer may be afraid of a even a 10% false positive ban rate, and as a result won't ban anyone except perhaps a small number of clean-cut cases.
replies(2): >>Xss3+UY2 >>Akrony+tx5
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104. Xss3+EY2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 15:30:24
>>danari+YR2
Then youve immediately made the cheater worse than the best players to blend in with them. Mission accomplished, cheater nerfed significantly. You wont even know theyre doing it.
replies(1): >>strbea+Ll7
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105. Xss3+UY2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 15:32:36
>>dchftc+zS2
Most cheaters are playing well outside of human limits and doing huge amounts of damage to the legitimate player experience. A 10% safety margin beyond human play sounds reasonable. A world where cheaters can only play 10% better than humans is a far better world than the one we are in at the moment.
replies(1): >>lukan+CI4
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106. DrammB+j03[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 15:40:26
>>Kolmog+R62
What do you do with footsteps and other positional audio? On multiplayer shooter games that's very vital information to let you know an enemy is somewhere behind a wall but cheaters can use it to draw visual markers to pinpoint the enemy player.
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107. kelsey+jT3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-04 20:04:56
>>dchftc+vZ1
Appreciate the feedback, you're right - armchair speculation is different than actual data science. Without actual data to examine, we're left with the latter and that can still be a fun exercise even if it doesn't solve any business problem. We're here to chitchat and converse after all.
replies(1): >>dchftc+hi5
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108. lukan+CI4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 00:44:57
>>Xss3+UY2
"A world where cheaters can only play 10% better than humans is a far better world than the one we are in at the moment."

My world is pretty fine, as I don't play games on servers, without active admin/mods that kick and ban people who obviously cheat.

ML solutions can maybe help here, but I believe they can reliable detect cheats, without banning also lucky or skilled players, once I see it.

replies(1): >>Xss3+mW4
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109. Xss3+mW4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 02:43:06
>>lukan+CI4
Human administration is not scalable.
replies(1): >>lukan+yUb
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110. dchftc+hi5[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 07:19:22
>>kelsey+jT3
Yeah, apologies if it was too harsh. I was more irked by someone else who kept trying to asset it's an easy problem, and confused it with your display of raw curiosity, which is something I don't wish to discourage.
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111. Akrony+tx5[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 09:09:44
>>dchftc+zS2
Yes, the current status is that cheaters can play distingushable from humans. But my point was more that, if we create a system that allows cheating that still is equivalent to a good player, then it just feels like playing against good players. Which, to me, feels like it'd be mission accomplished.

This is one of the cases where ML methods seem appropriate.

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112. webere+kj6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 14:14:15
>>lukan+I42
Yeah, that's why you need a data scientist or two to figure that stuff out. Its a solvable problem, but you're not going to get solutions instantly for free in the reply section of HN.
replies(1): >>lukan+6x6
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113. lukan+6x6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 15:18:24
>>webere+kj6
But in the reply section you can read about that it has been tried in reality, with not so much success as in theory. But if you see a working solution, then you don't need to tell me, but can market it yourself.
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114. Draike+Ka7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 18:02:33
>>enneff+3M
The marketing works because of what I said: people are dumb.

Anyone that's not dumb will know (maybe after the heat of the moment) why they lost, but the vast majority of people will blame anything they can instead. Teammates, lag, the developers, etc. Cheating is merely one of these excuses.

> I’ve seen so many players saying “look you can own my entire pc just please eliminate the cheating.”

This entire idea is so dumb it makes my head hurt. You can't eliminate bad actors no matter how hard you try. It's impossible in the real world.

All these "if only we could prevent X with more surveillance/control" ideas go up in flames as soon as reality hits. Even if a single person bypasses it, we can question everything. Then all we're left with are these surveillance systems that are then converted into pure data exfiltration to sell it all to the highest bidder (assuming they weren't doing this already).

I applaud Valve for not going down the easy route of creating spyware and selling it as "protection".

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115. strbea+Ll7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-05 18:51:16
>>Xss3+EY2
> Then youve immediately made the cheater worse than the best players to blend in with them.

You've made them the same as the best players. Otherwise we're banning the best players.

replies(1): >>Xss3+mub
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116. Xss3+mub[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-07 13:15:05
>>strbea+Ll7
Good! Thats a much better situation than the one we are in. Thrre is a limit to how much damage a good legit player can do to the average player experience. Just the psychological damage a blatant or rage hacker does is immense. Kills your motive to play, makes you question others, etc.
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117. lukan+yUb[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-12-07 16:52:55
>>Xss3+mW4
Why not? As long as there are players, some of them also want to be admins. You maybe mean commercial administration is not scalable for games with a fixed price? Sure, but give the option to the community to manage (rent) servers on their own and they will solve it themself.
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