I worry what this app and systems like it might mean for me. I'm a US citizen, but I used to be an LPR. I never naturalized - I got my citizenship automatically by operation of law (INA 320, the child citizenship act). At some point I stopped being noodlesUK (LPR) and magically became noodlesUK (US Citizen), but not through the normal process. Presumably this means that there are entries in USCIS's systems that are orphaned, that likely indicate that I am an LPR who has abandoned their status, or at least been very bad about renewing their green card.
I fear that people in similar situations to my own might have a camera put in their face, some old database record that has no chance of being updated will be returned, and the obvious evidence in front of an officer's eyes, such as a US passport will be ignored. There are probably millions of people in similar situations to me, and millions more with even more complex statuses.
I know people who have multiple citizenships with multiple names, similar to this person: >>45531721 . Will these hastily deployed systems be able to cope with the complex realities of real people?
EDIT: LPR is lawful permanent resident, i.e., green card holder
https://krebsonsecurity.com/2025/04/doge-workers-code-suppor...
> Most of the spending was on guns and armor, but there have also been significant purchases of chemical weapons and “guided missile warheads and explosive components.”
I'd really like to know why ICE needs guided missile warheads to do their job. (Edit: pointed out below, this is a purchase category that includes distraction devices like smoke grenades – they're thankfully not buying actual warheads.)
At this point, I'm confident that ICE could kick down my door and blow my white, midwestern, US Citizen ass away where I sit on this couch, and none of them would ever see the inside of a courtroom.
The purchase order PDF is linked here: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ice-guided-missile-warhead...
It's the official status of green card holders.
For the record: Apparently they helped the original Nazis. One link of many: https://time.com/archive/6931688/ibm-haunted-by-nazi-era-act...
> IBM, according to Black’s book and the lawsuit, was responsible for punch card technology used by Nazi demographers in the years leading up to World War II — and eventually by the SS, which was charged with rounding up Europe’s Jews. Although it has long been known that IBM’s German arm, which was taken over by the Nazis, had cooperated with the regime — and, indeed, was in a consortium of companies making payments to survivors and victims’ families — Black says that the American parent was fully aware of the use to which the technology was put. And after the Germans surrendered, Black says, IBM’s U.S. office was quick to collect profits made during the war by the subsidiary, called Dehomag.
> The punch cards and counting machines, says Black, were provided to Hitler’s government as early as 1933, and were probably used in the Nazis’ first official census that year. The technology came in handy again in 1939 when the government conducted another census, this time with the explicit goal of identifying and locating German Jews — and finally, Black alleges, in tracking records at Nazi concentration camps.
> It’s this specificity of purpose, says William Seltzer, an expert in demographic statistics at Fordham University, that provides the most damning evidence. “Microsoft is not responsible for every spreadsheet made with Excel,” Seltzer told TIME.com. “But if someone is doing custom designing of a database, they have to know what’s going on. With these punch cards, Dehomag had to design a card for every piece of new information that the government wanted.”
Note that all the facial recognition is being done by governments, which is the entity everyone suggests using to protect against facial recognition.
https://etias.com/articles/eu-biometric-border-checks-begin-...
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gp7j55zxvo (under the control of the executive)
https://www.politico.eu/article/how-facial-recognition-is-ta... (under the control of the executive)
https://www.biometricupdate.com/202405/police-in-germany-usi...
https://www.reuters.com/technology/italy-outlaws-facial-reco...
The important part about the Italian "ban" is, as with most privacy laws in the EU, the government bans facial recognition for companies, and explicitly allows the government to use it for everything they do)
This is common in the EU. For example, the GPDR guarantees that your medical data isn't used by companies. That sounds great! Except for the exceptions: insurance and health care providers are exempted, courts (even foreign ones) are excempted (and so a judge can subpoena your private medical information for divorce or custody cases), the police is exempted, youth services is exempted, ...
This may be statistically true, but it's probably not very good advice. You might equally end up deported, now that they are running everyone through every database looking for things that might make you technically deportable that would never have come up under previous administrations:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g78nj7701o
You used to be able to get bailed while stuff got sorted out. That has changed. Now they keep you locked up for months, not days. How long are you prepared to hold out before agreeing to be deported despite being in the right? Racial profiling is certainly happening, but anyone can find themselves in this situation if the wrong database pings when they walk through an airport, and once you have been dropped into immigration detention, relying on your ethnicity to get you out is not a sure thing.
1: https://xcancel.com/ProjectLincoln/status/191249066980685851...
Early 90's 2nd amendment anxiety, Ruby Ridge, assault weapon bans/Brady Bill and McVeigh's terrorist bombing in Oklahoma City propelled this stuff, and when we tried to impliment the national id (REAL ID Act) they very much flipped out, so they leaned on States Rights to shatter this notion, basically letting any state just not do it. 20 years later after REAL ID passed, you still don't need it unless you want to get on a plane.
It is highly ironic that the very same humans brains that constitute the right wing which railed against the REAL ID act are now basically demanding REAL ID Act. This is worth reflecting on.
[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20060702184553/http://www.nonati...
This is some more detail about the whisteblower's testimony from an earlier Krebs article:
https://krebsonsecurity.com/2025/04/whistleblower-doge-sipho...
Was there anything else about Russia?
https://pages.nist.gov/frvt/html/frvt11.html?utm_source=chat...
An ICE officer can't just detain somebody for having an accent or whatever, but if they have probable cause to think the person may not be a citizen then they have a substantial amount of leverage to affirm that. Probable cause has been tested somewhat rigorously in the courts and really means probable cause and not the knee-jerk obvious abuses like 'he's brown!'
1)https://www.wral.com/story/fact-check-trump-says-immigrants-...
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/12/...
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jan/24/met-polic...
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00146-023-01634-z
https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/blog/facial-recognition...
https://surface.syr.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2479&con...
Yeah it's pretty fucking shit, actually.
Here's the science.
https://theonion.com/trump-claims-he-can-overrule-constituti...
Evidence suggests that about 30% of people will accept being worse off in order to inflict a greater loss on someone else. They form a plurality, with the other groups being win-win types (~20%), loss-averse pessimists (~20%), selfless volunteers (~15%), and inconsistent folks who may be confused (~15%).
Now this is just empirical observation rather than proof, but it's a good quality observation, enough that it has heuristic value. If you admit the possibility that about 1/3 of people are mean, then an awful lot of ongoing political phenomena become much easier to understand.
Well, we've already crossed into "the law is what I say it is" territory thanks to the republicans, so the next admin just needs to leverage that. The GOP thinks that pardons signed by autopen are invalid [0] so I don't see what would stop the democrats from apply the same logic to ICE agents and administration, except perhaps cowardice.
[0] https://thehill.com/homenews/house/5575379-house-gop-comer-d...
This was a problem in 2012 and SCOTUS ruled unambiguously in Arizona vs United States that we cannot stop people based solely on their outward "apparent" immigration status. In SCOTUS's own words, "the usual predicate for an arrest is absent" and being merely "suspected of being removable... does not authorize an arrest."
"As a general rule, it is not a crime for a removable alien to remain present in the United States. See INS v. Lopez-Mendoza, 468 U.S. 1032, 1038 (1984). If the police stop someone based on nothing more than possible removability, the usual predicate for an arrest is absent. When an alien is suspected of being removable, a federal official issues an administrative document called a Notice to Appear. See 8 U. S. C. §1229(a); 8 CFR §239.1(a) (2012).
The form does not authorize an arrest."
This is a MAGA and Heritage Foundation-driven reversal of VERY recently settled law. Absolutely not business as usual.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/567/387/#tab-opi...
You don’t have to look too far on the internet to see that ICE is acting with impunity, and that the regular rules and rights are not being applied.
I don't believe there's a clear picture of what happens next.
Though I know some report the conditions inside the camps are pretty bad, access to lawyers is spotty, reportedly some people are deported without an official removal order / due process, and some people we don't know because they disappear from the public database that's supposed to inform family about the detained person's condition and whereabouts.
I'm not sure if all of that is covered in this BBC report, but feel free to read other journalistic sources
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/cincinnati-...
That ONE CBP office in the US. And it’s not even in a state with a high population of illegal aliens. There are 20 offices in the US.
And sure creating fraudulent documents from scratch isn’t easy. But it’s not that hard to use someone else’s identity to get documents that support US citizenship. Hell, a paper social security card is proof as long as it doesn’t say “NOT WORK AUTHORIZED on it.
So it wouldn’t even be that unusual to locate an alien that the database says (correctly) has a deportation order but for them to claim US citizenship and even produce a document that looks like they are.
You can even read a nice CBP report on the problems they have with fraudulent documents.
https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2025-09/O...
Maybe start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uleKvJ5Xsw8
https://www.politico.com/news/2025/10/28/man-deported-to-lao...
2. Because it's not clearly and entirely and immediately unlawful, and would take a court to rule about it (the courts are also fucked - SCOTUS recently ruled that lower courts are expected to defer to whatever batshit version of reality the government's lawyers are peddling) people in the chain of command can't clearly tell if the orders they are receiving are obviously illegal, and don't have good grounds to disobey them.
3. Also, that's, like, the way to civil war.
---
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rock_Nine - When integration began on September 4, 1957, the Arkansas National Guard was called in to "preserve the peace". Originally at orders of the governor, they were meant to prevent the black students from entering due to claims that there was "imminent danger of tumult, riot and breach of peace" at the integration. However, President Eisenhower issued Executive Order 10730, which federalized the Arkansas National Guard and ordered them to support the integration on September 23 of that year, after which they protected the African American students.[4]
https://x.com/dhsgov/status/1983550041496117532?s=46
“This temporary restraining order was not served to ICE until AFTER the criminal illegal alien was removed….Following his heinous crimes, he lost his green card, and an immigration judge ordered him removed in 2006. 20 years later, he tried a Hail Mary attempt to remain in our country by claiming he was a U.S. citizen.”
But yes, far less bothered by stingrays, ALPR national surveillance, etc in more recent times.
I just want to give people their dues on this. For example Rand Paul introduced the Justice for Breonna Taylor Act which would have banned no-knock warrants if it had passed.[1]
[0] https://www.cato.org/policy-report/july/august-2008/real-id-...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jun/15/trump-immigr...
https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-...
https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/ice-agents-penske-rental...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/29/ice-detentio...
https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/ice-makes-it-imp...
https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-access-to-counsel-dep...
https://www.propublica.org/article/immigrants-in-detention-c...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/oct/30/ice-hidden-d...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2025/06/09/steph...
https://www.propublica.org/article/ice-officer-shoves-woman-...
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/priv...
https://www.msnbc.com/top-stories/latest/ice-nebraska-immigr...
Now google "Kavanaugh stop". There has already been a Supreme Court case where ICE was challenged over their use of simple ethnicity to scoop up possible immigrants. Kavanaugh says: that's OK.
And I am done. It's really not my fault if the news you are consuming is not covering what is happening.
When I say don't be an idiot, I mean it in the sense of a useful idiot. Don't be uninformed. Don't be foolish. Don't let them get you to ignore what is happening.
(Mods, I appreciate this breaks the "long list of links" rule, probably. But it is an answer to the question from a wide variety of media sources which have documented what amounts to a slow-motion atrocity)
But if you want facts, let me google that for you. :)
Here's journalists documenting ICE arresting citizens. They do not have authority to do so: https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-...
ICE violating rights by deporting citizens: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna224501
ICE holds man in limbo for two and a half months, violating due process: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/oct/30/ice-hidden-d...
Judge rules ICE did not have probable cause: https://thebeaconnews.org/stories/2025/10/09/ice-arrests-imm...
Judge rules ICE behavior "unlawful" by holding someone with protected status for months: https://nysfocus.com/2025/11/01/ice-immigrant-teen-released
Judge rules agents are violating probable cause by making up ICE warrants on the spot: https://www.nprillinois.org/illinois/2025-10-08/court-scruti...
Judge rules ICE violating 5th amendment: https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/rcna218624
Judge rules ICE violating due process. They also are routinely starving detainees and even denying them water: https://calmatters.org/justice/2025/07/la-immigration-restra...
Judge tells ICE to stop using riot and less-lethal rounds on journalists and protesters: https://news.wttw.com/2025/10/14/trump-administration-contin...
If you can't find facts, then it's a skill issue.
And as I was demonstrating above, the conditional probabilities required for a false positive from this app mean that it's practical effective accuracy rate will likely be 100%.
[1] - https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/09/23/new-milestone-over-2-mil...
In the last week there were massive purges of regional ICE leadership all around the country, replacing them with more militarized border patrol people, because they have been reluctant to use excessive force. In a 60 minutes interview in the last week, Trump openly stated that he thinks ICE still isn't being violent enough. These purges are not just happening in the government- private universities and companies have been extorted, or attempted to be extorted into performing ideological purges. Take a look at the outrageous letter Trump sent Harvard, demanding that they replace half of their faculty with those in personal political ideological alignment with him, subject to external review by someone he appoints.
Yes, ICE is entering communities and just violently beating up people unprovoked- there are literally hundreds of videos of it that I have seen, on Instagram in particular- including from the ACLU. Look at what happened in Wilder Idaho, where they detained every man, women, and child at a massive public horse racing event, and shot rubber bullets, zip tied, and handcuffed children while sadistically beating their parents in front of them- long high res videos of it are all over.
People absolutely have a legal right to 'heckle' or protest government sponsored violence in their communities, and are being brutalized or detained for exercising their 1st amendment rights, by masked agents refusing to identify so they cannot be held accountable, regardless of their crimes. No, it is not unreasonable to expect federal agents tasked with enforcing immigration law to be mentally capable of reading passports or birth certificates proving citizenship- border agents do this for a million people entering the USA legally every single day.
The reason divides on these sort of issues are probably irreconcilable is because of stuff like this. So many people seem to have missed the point of the childhood story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf.
Here’s an article discussing how Noem recently claimed that “no American citizens have been arrested or detained”, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary: https://blockclubchicago.org/2025/11/04/homeland-security-bo...
Here’s an article discussing how the recent video published by DHS about their success in DC was in fact composed of footage from different cities and months old: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2025/10/29/tru...
Here’s another article discussing some of the same incidents and others where DHS put out false statements and would not correct them: https://reason.com/2025/10/22/homeland-security-wont-stop-ly...
Here’s another letter from a congresswoman demanding DHS retract false statements made about an alleged criminal, who was later proven to be framed: https://gwenmoore.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?Documen...
So why should I believe anything they say these days? They are blatantly lying, in ways that are manifestly obvious to anyone that is willing to look. We don’t owe the presumption of good faith to people who time and again have been publicly caught lying - and worse, who haven’t even tried to correct the record.
Now go frame by frame at about the 5.5s mark. You can see the individual in question charge and then thrust his body in front of the responding ICE officer (watch how he leans left into the officer before they are in physical contact) to create a physical altercation. He then attempts to grab the legs of the officer as he jogs away. The same guy then comes out for more, and pushes one ICE officer dealing with somebody else, and then starts grappling with another ICE officer before he's finally tackled and arrested.
Media Framing:
- Surveillance footage shows Ice agents pushing 79-year-old man to the ground (Guardian)
- Car wash owner files $50M claim over injuries sustained during immigration raid (ABC)
- 79-year-old US citizen pinned by ICE agents (Fox)
- California wash owner tackled, arrested 'impeding' ICE arrest (USA Today)
- U.S. citizen files civil rights claim after ICE raid at his car wash (NBC)
As this is the first video ProPublica featured, presumably they think that's the most compelling case. In any case it's certainly one of their cases which are supposed to be injust, yet there wasn't even the slightest injustice there whatsoever. And now he wants $50 million lol. I'd also add that ProPublica implies that the government dropping charges in cases is because of lack of merit. In reality it's going to be a balance of gain:loss from such. This is one of those cases where the charges were dropped, but obviously that was not done for lack of merit.
[1] - https://www.splcenter.org/resources/stories/florida-sheriffs...
[2] - https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-...
No, but not sure it matters?
"But that’s not what’s happening in many cases. People using others ID. Questions about fraud in the immigration case itself."
Of US citizens being detained? It 100% is not.
The propublica article below gives an example of a citizen being detained, twice, after providing a valid real id from alabama, in their own name.
"If you have any examples of US citizens being detained for extended periods (actual citizens, not just a verbal claim) I’d be interested to read about them."
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us-citizen-detained-ice... is one such case.
There are many others.
In the end, when they discover they are american citizens, they have often falsified affidavits and indicted them on "assaulting officer" charges. The vast majority of these indictments have been dismissed by judges for lack of any evidence.
In case you don't believe that is what happens, here's a case in texas last week where the judge was having none of it, and dismissed just such an indictment after pointing out they were lying repeatedly about their investigations into immigration status, and then lying about how force was used, see:
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txwd.11...
If you want some more stories, here:
https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-...
He actually gave an explanation for this which we clearly know is a lie - he claimed that "when he tried to speak with the agents and show them the legal paperwork for his employees, they shoved him to the ground, and at least one agent put his knee on Shouhed’s neck." [1] He probably wasn't aware the outside altercation had been recorded. Where's the paperwork? And in this case 5 illegal aliens were arrested, including one who had already been arrested and deported twice previously.
There's a balance to all things in life. Obviously we should not be blindly prejudiced against individuals on one extreme, yet on the equal but opposite extreme one can be so open minded that your brain falls out.
[1] - https://www.newsweek.com/trump-admin-sued-for-50m-over-immig...