zlacker

> LLMs do surface real linguistic structure...

It's completely irrelevant because the point he's making is that LLMs operate differently from human languages as evidenced by the fact that they can learn language structures that humans cannot learn. Put another way, I'm sure you can point out an infinitude of similarities between human language faculty and LLMs but it's the critical differences that make LLMs not useful models of human language ability.

> When you feed them “impossible” languages (e.g., mirror-order or random-agreement versions of English), perplexity explodes and structure heads disappear—evidence that the models do encode natural-language constraints.

This is confused. You can pre-train an LLM on English or an impossible language and they do equally well. On the other hand humans can't do that, ergo LLMs aren't useful models of human language because they lack this critical distinctive feature.

>>foobar+(OP)
Is that true? This paper claims it is not.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2401.06416

>>rahimn+A4
Yes it's true, you can read my response to one of the authors @canjobear describing the problem with that paper in the comment linked below. But to summarize: in order to show what they want to show they have to take the simple, interesting languages based on linear order that Moro showed a human cannot learn and show that LLMs also can't learn them and they don't do that.

The reason the Moro languages are of interest are that they are computationally simple so it's a puzzle why humans can't learn them (and no surprise that LLMs can). The authors of the paper miss the point and show irrelevant things like there exist complicated languages that both humans and LLMs can't learn.

>>42290482

>>foobar+(OP)
> You can pre-train an LLM on English or an impossible language and they do equally well

It's impressive that LLMs can learn languages that humans cannot. In what frame is this a negative?

Separately, "impossible language" is a pretty clear misnomer. If an LLM can learn it, it's possible.

>>paulsu+P8
The latter. Moro showed that you can construct simple language rules, in particular linear rules, like the third word of every sentence modifies the noun, that humans have a hard time learning (specifically they use different parts of their brain in MRI scans and take longer to process than control languages) and are different from conventional human language structure (which hierarchical structure dependent, i.e. roughly that words are interpreted according to their position in a parse tree not their linear order).

That's what "impossible language" means in this context, not something like computationally impossible or random.

>>foobar+X9
Ok then .. what makes that a negative? You're describing a human limitation and a strength of LLMs

>>paulsu+oa
It's not a negative, it's just not what humans do, which is Chomsky's (a person studying what humans do) point.

As I said in another comment this whole dispute would be put to bed if people understood that they don't care about what humans do (and that Chomsky does).

>>foobar+Xb
Suggestion for you then, in your first response you would have been clearer to say "The reason Chomsky seems like such a retard here, is because he clings to irrelevant nonsense"

It's completely unremarkable that humans are unable to learn certain languages, and soon it will be unremarkable when humans have no cognitive edge over machines.

Response: Science? "Ancient Linguistics" would more accurately describe Chomsky's field of study and its utility

>>paulsu+0e
> Suggestion for you then, in your first response you would have been clearer to say "The reason Chomsky seems like such a retard here, is because he clings to irrelevant nonsense"

If science is irrelevant to you it's you who should have recognized this before spouting off.