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[parent] [thread] 19 comments
1. kcatsk+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-04-05 18:28:20
Of course it's open for discussion. Free speech is not limitless.

You can wax poetically all you want about endowment by the creator, but try saying racial slurs on daytime TV and see how long that lasts.

Advertisement is just another form of speech that can be limited.

replies(2): >>bofade+K >>bigstr+s3
2. bofade+K[view] [source] 2025-04-05 18:32:45
>>kcatsk+(OP)
"Congress shall MAKE NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

What part of that are you confused by? You are making a brash claim that the writ of the state includes the ability to censor speech.

Your right to free speech is not granted by anyone. It's your natural right. It's not possible to separate this right from a human with a law.

replies(4): >>kcatsk+za >>GolfPo+Vb >>dahart+NE1 >>holler+zr2
3. bigstr+s3[view] [source] 2025-04-05 18:45:19
>>kcatsk+(OP)
> You can wax poetically all you want about endowment by the creator, but try saying racial slurs on daytime TV and see how long that lasts.

You're conflating two senses of "free speech". Free speech is an ideal, which our society does not fully reach (as you correctly pointed out). But in the US, "free speech" is also sometimes used to refer to the legal protection from the first amendment. And in your example, that does apply. I can say all the racial slurs I want on TV, and it would be quite illegal to put me in jail for it.

replies(2): >>bofade+V5 >>kcatsk+79
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4. bofade+V5[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-05 18:58:43
>>bigstr+s3
People in other countries also have natural rights. Even if they live under oppressive governments, the right to free speech still exists. It's the same logic used by abolitionists to justify ending slavery.

"Natural rights are those that are not dependent on the laws or customs of any particular culture or government, and so are universal, fundamental and inalienable (they cannot be repealed by human laws, though one can forfeit their enjoyment through one's actions, such as by violating someone else's rights). Natural law is the law of natural rights.

Legal rights are those bestowed onto a person by a given legal system (they can be modified, repealed, and restrained by human laws). The concept of positive law is related to the concept of legal rights."

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5. kcatsk+79[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-05 19:20:41
>>bigstr+s3
> I can say all the racial slurs I want on TV, and it would be quite illegal to put me in jail for it.

This is not true.

Under 18 U.S.C. Section 1464, “[w]hoever utters any obscene, indecent, or profane language by means of radio communication shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.” Under 18 U.S.C. Section 1468(a), “[w]hoever knowingly utters any obscene language or distributes any obscene matter by means of cable television or subscription services on television, shall be punished by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or by a fine in accordance with this title, or both.” Likewise, under 47 U.S.C. Section 559, “[w]hoever transmits over any cable system any matter which is obscene or otherwise unprotected by the Constitution of the United States shall be fined under Title 18 or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.”

replies(1): >>bofade+0q2
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6. kcatsk+za[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-05 19:32:02
>>bofade+K
There are already established legal limits on speech.

Again, try screaming racial slurs on daytime television. You will be met with a fine and/or imprisonment.

I am not a lawyer. I am not a member of congress. I did not write the law. I don't particularly like or agree with those laws. But they exist, and unless I'm mistaken it seems like you're unwilling to acknowledge their existence.

replies(1): >>bofade+2o7
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7. GolfPo+Vb[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-05 19:44:30
>>bofade+K
That a significant proportion of advertising involves deceit, coercion, and captive audiences says a great deal about the nature of it. The First Amendment codifies the right to say what you want, to print or otherwise make public your thoughts. That doesn't give anyone, or anything, a right to force their ideas into the minds of the public or a subset thereof. And while advertisers are not quite yet forcing anyone to consume their product at the proverbial "barrel of a gun" they are far beyond the norms of human communication.

It is not acceptable for a stranger to come up and start shouting at you while you're trying to read, or hold a conversation, do your shopping, or put gas in your car. So why is it somehow acceptable for advertisers to do so? Would you want to pay for a course of instruction, some unknown percentage of which was not instruction, but was actually conducted at the direction of unknown others, who, with no regard or concern for your life, liberty, well-being or happiness were trying to extract wealth from you? Yet that is exactly what happens with much of our media-mediated experience of the world.

I think the underlying changes in the technology of communication have allowed advertising to grow without sufficient thought on whether such expansion was actually a public good. Like license plates - the impact of which changed radically when the government could, thanks to advances in technology, use them to monitor the position of virtually all vehicles over time, instead of being forced to physically look up who owned what vehicle - the explosion of media over the last century has been accompanied by an immense shift in the impact and capability and intrusiveness of advertising. And it's legality needs to be reassessed in that light.

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8. dahart+NE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-06 15:02:25
>>bofade+K
Free speech has exceptions that include commercial speech and advertising, especially false advertising. So are you talking about US free speech laws, or about some other kind of free speech?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

US law is not a natural right and does not grant the right to say anything. You can claim and exercise a perceived natural right to say anything, you just won’t be protected from punishment under US law for saying certain things.

replies(1): >>bofade+hr2
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9. bofade+0q2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-06 20:46:09
>>kcatsk+79
[flagged]
replies(1): >>kcatsk+XA5
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10. bofade+hr2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-06 20:57:43
>>dahart+NE1
A law cannot remove a natural right. A law can protect a natural right or oppress people by using violence against them if they exercise their natural right.

One stark example is the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 in the United States. This law required that escaped slaves, even if they reached free states, be captured and returned to their owners. It went further by mandating that citizens and law enforcement in free states assist in this process, effectively making it illegal to help runaway slaves. Penalties for non-compliance were harsh—fines and imprisonment loomed over anyone who aided a fugitive.

By today’s standards, this is widely seen as abhorrent because it not only upheld slavery but forced people to actively participate in it, stripping away any moral or legal refuge for those seeking freedom. It’s a glaring relic of a time when human beings were legally treated as property, clashing hard with modern values of liberty and equality.

replies(1): >>dahart+7P2
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11. holler+zr2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-06 21:00:30
>>bofade+K
>It's your natural right. It's not possible to separate this right from a human with a law.

I get the impression that this "natural right" term is intended to preclude inquiry and shut down discussion.

replies(1): >>bofade+Mr2
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12. bofade+Mr2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-06 21:02:14
>>holler+zr2
Right. Just as it's not possible to discuss reinstitution of slavery. It's not open for dicussion.
replies(1): >>holler+Xr2
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13. holler+Xr2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-06 21:03:33
>>bofade+Mr2
What do you have to say to the 40-year-old man who says he has a natural right to have sex with 10-year-olds and for the state to punish him for it is just as wrong as state support for slavery was?

It seems that the only effect this "natural right" term has on sufficiently curious interlocutors (who will not fall for your rhetorical trick) is to signal that you are more stubborn than people who do not use the term.

replies(1): >>bofade+vs2
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14. bofade+vs2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-06 21:10:59
>>holler+Xr2
I would tell the man that he should just take a class or read the Wikipedia on what a natural right is if he's so interested in it and using it to protect himself. I would tell him that commenting on it in this manner embarrasses himself and exposes that he has no education on the topic.

Any involuntary contract imposed on any individual is axiomatically immoral and unethical, as I've said below. There's no need to use such extreme examples.

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15. dahart+7P2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-07 00:58:07
>>bofade+hr2
That’s great, but not what I asked about. Free speech protections in the US are based on laws and not natural rights.
replies(1): >>bofade+YX2
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16. bofade+YX2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-07 02:18:46
>>dahart+7P2
Well that's not how it reads in historical documents to me. But you're free to have that opinion if you want to.
replies(1): >>dahart+Jm4
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17. dahart+Jm4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-07 15:01:27
>>bofade+YX2
Which historical documents are you referring to? Are you talking about the Declaration of Independence, which doesn’t mention free speech, nor define what natural rights are, nor provide any protection from any governments when asserting natural rights?

I’m talking about the First Amendment, which does mention free speech. That’s a law and not a natural right, which you already know since you quoted it above. Additional laws and court decisions have defined what the free speech protections are, and what types of speech are not protected by law.

The important thing to know about free speech in the US is that because it’s a legal right, it comes with legal protections from the government itself.

The important thing to know about natural rights is that they don’t come with any protection whatsoever, because they are not laws or legal rights. Asserting natural rights may come with consequences that include violence, imprisonment, or death. Indeed, the Declaration of Independence was asserting the natural right to start a war against oppressive government, specifically to justify breaking with British colonial rule. If there are no legal rights protecting you, the government is under no obligation to respect your perceived natural rights.

replies(1): >>bofade+695
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18. bofade+695[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-07 19:59:42
>>dahart+Jm4
I'm glad you're taking time to learn about it. But all a state can do is either pass laws to protect natural rights, or they can pass laws to punish people with violence for exercising their natural rights.

All laws are backed by violence. That's called law enforcement.

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19. kcatsk+XA5[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-07 23:38:54
>>bofade+0q2
The Espionage Act of 1917 is still on the books today and it limits speech. But sure bud, I bet it's going away any day now!

It's a good thing that natural rights are a real thing and not just something you enjoy ranting into your computer about.

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20. bofade+2o7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-04-08 16:58:51
>>kcatsk+za
That's not what is being discussed though. You missed the point.
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