zlacker

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1. cs702+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-12-28 14:23:57
Nowadays, whenever I browse Netflix, I feel like that Bruce Springsteen song, "57 Channels (And Nothin' On)."[a] Sure, there are lots of choices, but they all kinda suck. I find myself wondering, why? The OP weaves an insightful, opinionated narrative that explains how we got here. Much of it rings true. This passage, in particular struck a chord with me:

> Several screenwriters who’ve worked for the streamer told me a common note from company executives is “have this character announce what they’re doing so that viewers who have this program on in the background can follow along.” [...] One tag among Netflix’s thirty-six thousand microgenres offers a suitable name for this kind of dreck: “casual viewing.” Usually reserved for breezy network sitcoms, reality television, and nature documentaries, the category describes much of Netflix’s film catalog — movies that go down best when you’re not paying attention, or as the Hollywood Reporter recently described Atlas, a 2024 sci-fi film starring Jennifer Lopez, “another Netflix movie made to half-watch while doing laundry.”

In other words, people like me, who want to focus on and experience a great film or series, are no longer the target audience.

Apparently, there's no money in targeting people who want to pay attention.

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[a] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/57_Channels_(And_Nothin'_On)

replies(6): >>bryanr+q4 >>giraff+n8 >>Loughl+tb >>marcos+nk >>_DeadF+FF >>f33d51+zY3
2. bryanr+q4[view] [source] 2024-12-28 15:04:22
>>cs702+(OP)
I mean it is also somewhat dependent on how much bandwidth you have free while doing laundry, some people can handle watching the complicated stuff while doing their daily tasks and I guess those people also hate these half-assed shows.
replies(2): >>vladva+vb >>mindsl+qr1
3. giraff+n8[view] [source] 2024-12-28 15:35:13
>>cs702+(OP)
TV was also like this though. It's one of the first things you learn in a 20th century media class. Early TV shows were adapted from radio play scripts, and later written by radio play scriptwriters moving into the new format. That structure and its conventions stayed strongly influential right up until the end of prominent network TV shows.

TV show creators understood and planned for people watching their shows in a variety of environments, with varying degrees and kinds of attention. A lot of what made for example X-files and Sopranos compelling was a willingness to break this convention, so it was still firmly in place by the late 90s.

You could also maybe reasonably claim that all TV shows before those were bad as well. But then you need to view netflix as reverting to the norm rather than being a novel travesty. We are simply exiting a 20 year anomaly where TV was good.

I'm not quite making that argument here though. I think there was good TV before the 90s, so I think this is a constraint on the form that good creators can work through and still make compelling art. Why netflix can't is an interesting question but I think this avenue is a dead end for understanding it.

replies(1): >>cs702+kl
4. Loughl+tb[view] [source] 2024-12-28 16:04:04
>>cs702+(OP)
There is still good cinema and television, it's just shockingly difficult to find.

The first person who figures out how to sort the wheat from the chaff and does so with no interior motive could be a millionaire immediately.

replies(4): >>rchaud+6e >>emptie+6l >>BlueTe+yq >>weebul+vC2
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5. vladva+vb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 16:04:29
>>bryanr+q4
I think it depends on which kind of bandwidth we're talking about. I can follow a talk-show no problem while doing laundry / the dishes / vacuum / iron. Keyword being "talk". But I can't look at the screen too often.

So, watching a sitcom or similar where the characters' body language or facial expressions are important is an exercise in frustration.

replies(1): >>BlueTe+vs
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6. rchaud+6e[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 16:26:39
>>Loughl+tb
"could be a millionnaire immediately" is precisely the kind of techbro ulterior motive that creates these situations in the first place.
replies(1): >>porrid+og
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7. porrid+og[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 16:46:18
>>rchaud+6e
Exactly. Value extraction posing as value creation :)
8. marcos+nk[view] [source] 2024-12-28 17:12:20
>>cs702+(OP)
Well, people that want to half-watch TV deserve stuff made for them too.

Netflix has shows made for really watching too. I don't know if they are rebellious acts from their makers, brought without an option, or actual choices, but Netflix does have them.

My impression is that Netflix cornered themselves into the same AAA race to death that the major movie studios are in. Everything is too expensive, so they can't accept risks, so nothing is really good (nor really bad). Micromanaging is just one more visible consequence of that, between lots and lots that stay hidden but are as important to the final result.

replies(3): >>brendo+zU >>drewco+bf1 >>slowmo+8m1
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9. emptie+6l[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 17:18:16
>>Loughl+tb
This App Store review makes Mubi sound promising:

"MUBI IS TERRIBLE! *---- 6y ago • Nick2866 MUBI is terrible there's no good action or horror films it's crazy because almost all of the movies on the app I haven't even heard of and I'm a big movie buff. So just don't waste your time with MUBI just get Netflix or amazon prime."

replies(1): >>geoele+OV
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10. cs702+kl[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 17:19:56
>>giraff+n8
My completely unscientific impression is that other services are making the effort to produce high-quality films and series, including Apple TV+ (Slow Horses, Silo, For All Mankind, Foundation, etc.), Max/HBO (Barry, Curb Your Enthusiasm, GoT, The Last of Us, etc.), FX (Shogun, The Bear, The Old Man, Fargo, etc.), and AMC (Better Call Saul, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, The Night Manager, etc.). Whatever you think of the quality of shows in those services, they at least show genuine effort to make things that don't suck.
replies(1): >>rat87+V71
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11. BlueTe+yq[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 17:56:11
>>Loughl+tb
You mean like the $ million given for the Netflix Prize ?

https://m.slashdot.org/story/122585

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12. BlueTe+vs[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 18:08:40
>>vladva+vb
Yeah, so that's what radio is for (including in recorded form, aka podcasts).

Making video (more complicated than "talking heads") so nobody watches it is such a waste... (so is non peer to peer mass streaming, come to think of it).

replies(1): >>mindsl+zr1
13. _DeadF+FF[view] [source] 2024-12-28 19:36:45
>>cs702+(OP)
The reality is the average person's time to watch TV/unwind is also going to be spent doing chores. This was always the case. When I was a kid, we watched shows that could be followed along by whoever was cooking dinner/doing dishes as well as the people sitting in front of the set. People don't have all that much extra free time.

Movies were an experience because... they were an experience. They weren't constantly on. They were a rare treat, not something consumed nightly.

replies(1): >>Retric+GM
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14. Retric+GM[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 20:19:19
>>_DeadF+FF
It’s very true this drives watch time, but I doubt it drives subscriptions.

My guess is some internal metrics favor watch time over quality and is just quietly killing their business.

replies(2): >>Uw7yTc+161 >>bryanl+at1
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15. brendo+zU[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 21:07:08
>>marcos+nk
> Well, people that want to half-watch TV deserve stuff made for them too.

What? No they don't. Film and television are visual art forms that are meant to be viewed and given the appropriate attention. There's already plenty of mediocre television out there you can use as background noise; we don't need to intentionally lower the bar for the media that's being made. As the article mentions, Netflix has already played its part in ruining the job landscape for writers and actors. I guess they see a need to play their part in devaluing the work that remains.

replies(5): >>intern+aV >>Michae+eX >>lordna+oX >>apprec+K01 >>hulitu+Ri2
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16. intern+aV[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 21:12:23
>>brendo+zU
6.5/10 movies only deserve 65% attention, and 6.5/10 is the target imdb rating for all streamers. Not bad, not great, but good enough to avoid controversy and maintain subs.
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17. geoele+OV[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 21:17:06
>>emptie+6l
Mubi has a truly fantastic art house selection along with a few more accessible films like the recent critically acclaimed horror, The Substance.

It’s worth checking out on trial, or at least browsing the catalog, but the collection was too esoteric for me to keep a subscription. If you like art house, though, and especially if you’re cool with diving into unknown titles, it’s pretty impressive.

replies(1): >>vo2max+1n1
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18. Michae+eX[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 21:26:35
>>brendo+zU
“ Film and television are visual art forms that are meant to be viewed and given the appropriate attention.”

According to who…?

There’s not even a universally agreed upon definition of ‘art’ last time I checked.

replies(1): >>skeled+vl1
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19. lordna+oX[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 21:28:14
>>brendo+zU
Don't worry, very, very soon the crappy shows that people half-watch will no longer be produced. By humans.

We'll still need people to create actually good content, but that crappy filler stuff will be generated.

It will be a special kind of hell, but there will probably be some way to find out what to actually spend your time watching.

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20. apprec+K01[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 21:54:04
>>brendo+zU
> no they don’t. … > meant to be viewed and given the appropriate attention

I think the person choosing to spend a few hours of their one life with some audio/visual media, whether they’re doing their laundry or not, is the one who gets to decide whether or not it’s art, and how much attention it deserves. Anything else leads to some uncomfortable places.

replies(1): >>brendo+hs1
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21. Uw7yTc+161[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 22:37:16
>>Retric+GM
As most of their revenue becomes advertising revenue instead of subscriptions then watch time is all they care about. It’s what happened with cable TV.
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22. rat87+V71[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 22:55:37
>>cs702+kl
Yeah most of those services aren't as popular as Netflix so they have to compete for eyeballs. Also for Apple/Amazon TV is a minor side business. The show you listed for HBO are largely HBO shows developed for HBO some arguably back when watching HBO under a cable subscription was the norm. Breaking Bad was made for tv first.
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23. drewco+bf1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-28 23:54:15
>>marcos+nk
> Well, people that want to half-watch TV deserve stuff made for them too.

The Muzak-ification of film?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzak

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24. skeled+vl1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-29 00:59:40
>>Michae+eX
Since when is there video that's not meant to be viewed? Is there also audio not meant to be listened? Written words not meant to be read? Of people want something to listen in the background while doing something else, there's music, podcasts and audiobooks.
replies(2): >>Michae+jp1 >>apprec+lh2
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25. slowmo+8m1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-29 01:06:40
>>marcos+nk
No. No they don't.
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26. vo2max+1n1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-29 01:17:00
>>geoele+OV
Where else but in MUBI can you discover the works of Andrea Arnold and her most recent film, Bird? The same goes for countless other directors whose oeuvre was unknown to me, someone who was introduced by my Father to Bergman and Kurosawa when I was barely seven.

There is also The Criterion Channel where I saw La Jetée for the first time after years of reluctance to immerse myself in a film essentially made of still photos. I have now gone back and watched it three more times, both in French and English. That’s how large of an impact it’s had on me. And I originally meant to get through it quickly (28 minutes duration), in preparation to rewatch 12 Monkeys.

Netflix does show some films that cater to a non mainstream audience, but may take more effort to find them. I recently saw Aftersun directed by Charlotte Wells, and I can’t recommend it highly enough. You will sob quietly.

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27. Michae+jp1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-29 01:39:56
>>skeled+vl1
> Since when is there video that's not meant to be viewed?

Since the day they were invented? Certainly by the mid 50s there were hundreds of different relgious sects all over the world with prohibitions of some kind.

Because different people can have differing opinions… or do you somehow believe literally 100% of the human population shares that opinion?

replies(1): >>skeled+pX3
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28. mindsl+qr1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-29 02:04:03
>>bryanr+q4
If I'm sitting down to watch something new, I'm going to give it my full attention and therefore want it to be awesome. If I just want background noise then I can just put on anything that I've already seen for its mood. I can't fathom wanting to be only half paying attention to new things. It feels like living very indeliberately. Is the point just to be able to say you've seen such and such new show, or what?
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29. mindsl+zr1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-29 02:05:48
>>BlueTe+vs
> so is non peer to peer mass streaming

erm, I'm a huge proponent of both peer to peer networking and piracy but it's hard to argue that transiting backbone links is more efficient than CDN boxen sitting at ISPs right next to last mile links.

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30. brendo+hs1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-29 02:17:12
>>apprec+K01
There are two different perspectives. The viewer is, of course, entitled to do whatever they want in the privacy of their own home. The creator or creators, conversely, are entitled to create something with the intention that it be viewed; if they didn't have that intention, then they probably wouldn't choose a visual medium.

I think what bothers me is Netflix inserting themselves into this conversation and trying to dictate what creators create. The idea of using data to say "well, some portion of people don't actually pay attention while their TV is on" to conclude "therefore, we should create visual media that is not intended to be watched" is the reductio ad absurdium conclusion of data-driven decision making gone wrong and it deserves ridicule.

replies(2): >>tomato+Kz1 >>apprec+Mg2
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31. bryanl+at1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-29 02:27:20
>>Retric+GM
> I doubt it drives subscriptions.

We would not have as many streaming subscriptions as we do if had to sit in front of the TV to watch shows, if we couldn't have shows in the background while doing laundry and other chores.

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32. tomato+Kz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-29 03:36:30
>>brendo+hs1
...actually wait, you unintentionally brought up an interesting point, how exactly did Netflix get data on how people are consuming their media in the privacy of their own home. That's not something you'd get good data off a simple survey
replies(1): >>fragme+h12
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33. fragme+h12[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-29 10:09:32
>>tomato+Kz1
The Netflix app knows when it's playing but the video window isn't visible.
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34. apprec+Mg2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-29 13:55:26
>>brendo+hs1
That’s fair, I guess my interpretation of Netflix's actions isn’t that they are not inserting themselves between artists and art lovers, but rather as simply another middleman between consumer and producers. Neither bad or good, imo. They apparently feel they have data showing that most people most of the time, don’t want art, so they are acting accordingly.

It’s not that I’ve never watched a terrible tv or movie, or can’t believe that Netflix’s actions here could lead to more of them. It’s just that I have difficulty raising this to the level of art. We only consider a minuscule fraction the printed word to be art, and we don’t accuse producers of the other 99.99999999% schlocky text produced daily (including hacker news comment posters like me tbc! :) of destroying literature. People who only want to read text they consider art continue to have options, even while the rest of us are free to read less elevated prose.

What it feels like to me, is that the cost to consume video, art or not, has steadily declined over decades, so a lot more people are watching a lot more video. Just like text after the printing press, most of that is never going to be art, and imo that’s fine. I have many other concerns with a world where ppl consume video all day, just not whether or not they are consuming art or being correctly deferential.

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35. apprec+lh2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-29 14:01:16
>>skeled+vl1
Why aren’t people allowed to to use movies or tv shows as background listening?

I know several people on my life who have been leaving a TV on in their house all day, for decades before Netflix existed. Personally I can’t stand this, but because it’s a distraction, not because they are somehow disrespecting someone involved in the production who wants to believe they are an artist.

replies(1): >>skeled+IW3
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36. hulitu+Ri2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-29 14:15:09
>>brendo+zU
> Film and television are visual art forms that are meant to be viewed and given the appropriate attention

Some of it, yes. But the majority of it is just circus, designed, together with bread, to keep the masses quiet.

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37. weebul+vC2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-29 17:24:12
>>Loughl+tb
*ulterior motive
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38. skeled+IW3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-30 04:11:35
>>apprec+lh2
Oh they can use it for background listening, but content shouldn't be specifically designed for that mode. Same way people using a hammer to drive screws shouldn't have screws designed for hammer driving. It just doesn't make sense when something more appropriate already exists.
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39. skeled+pX3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-30 04:19:01
>>Michae+jp1
The viewing of particular visual content being restricted by some religion, etc is a different argument from visual content somehow designed not to be viewed - by anyone - being created. The former is a matter of opinion, the latter a pointless paradox.
replies(1): >>Michae+Dn5
40. f33d51+zY3[view] [source] 2024-12-30 04:36:42
>>cs702+(OP)
There is money in that, it just fundamentally doesn't make sense to build a subscription service for it. There are still good movies being made, but they cost money to make, and someone needs to pay for them. They cannot exist if they get thrown on a streaming service where they'll earn a pittance. HN seems to believe they have a fundamental right to watch all the movies and tv ever made for $8/month, but that was only possible due to very special circumstances that have since evaporated.

Netflix is slowly succumbing to it's inevitable fate of turning into daytime tv. That's the only space where it makes sense economically to pay a fixed subscription fee regardless of how much you consume. If you want an all you can eat buffet, don't act surprised when it isn't michelin starred.

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41. Michae+Dn5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-12-30 18:13:11
>>skeled+pX3
The latter is also an opinion, because the people who decide to create videos are also fallible human beings…

Unless you believe it’s impossible for someone to have contradictory or incoherent intentions?

replies(1): >>skeled+hZ8
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42. skeled+hZ8[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-01 13:06:43
>>Michae+Dn5
Nothing about opinion or fallibility here. The latter is theoretically possible, but practically senseless. In a very literal way. There is 0 purpose to have something visual that is not intended to be consumed visually. What is a picture that is never seen? This is actually very similar to the philosophical question of whether or not a tree falling in a forest with nothing to hear it makes a sound, but this isn't philosophy we're dealing with.
replies(1): >>Michae+DDi
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43. Michae+DDi[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-05 16:31:55
>>skeled+hZ8
“0 purpose” according to who…?
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